Another Black Eye For Chasers?

[Evan Bookbinder]

Now, I certainly wasn't surprised that there were hundreds of chasers on the same couple of storms considering the prior week of gorgeous weather and really one small area chase target. However, there were more than a handful of chasers (both solo and in groups) that were breaking a multitude of driving laws on both main and rural Kansas roads. Speeding on a rural dirt road with no traffic...honestly not my beef (of course unless a stray cow is involved) :) However, we counted no less than two dozen vehicles who were "pulled off" on various roads with portions of their vehicle and/or equipment actually in the road. I realize that most western KS roads have fairly steep drop-offs along the shoulder, but if you find a spot to get your vehicle safely and completely off the road, use your hazard lights and act responsibly, I don't think anyone is going to have a care in the world.

http://online.hdnews.net/content/news/chasers052307.shtml

Evan

[Jeff Snyder]

No time to really comment, but this is extremely frustrating:


Ralph Eschbaumer, emergency management director in Graham County, had similar experiences.
“They are a hindrance to emergency services wherever they are,” he said.

It'd be interesting to see what happens when chasers and spotters stop reporting in his area, and some town gets wiped out from a night-time tornado. What, no chasers or spotters to keep track of things? Ooops. Of course, the NWS would be blamed, not some power-tripping local EM official. Grr.

I agree that sometimes things get clogged, and there are always people who don't get the whole "pull ENTIRELY off the road" part, but to clump ALL chasers in a group and say we all get in the way of EM operations is ludicris. Tell that to the chasers that stopped to help out the residents of Greensburg a couple of weeks ago.

[John Hudson]

No time to really comment, but this is extremely frustrating:



It'd be interesting to see what happens when chasers and spotters stop reporting in his area, and some town gets wiped out from a night-time tornado. What, no chasers or spotters to keep track of things? Ooops. Of course, the NWS would be blamed, not some power-tripping local EM official. Grr.



Totally agree. This happens every year, and it doesn't look like it's going to get better anytime soon. It is unfair to paint everyone with the same brush; I came upon some rather large convergences this year in Kansas, but I have to say that most everyone I saw was operating responsibly.

The guy in the article mentions the "freelancers" as being especially problematic. Does the fact that you might sell some of your photographic work automatically mean you're going to be a scofflaw? Not likely. There's not that much competition anymore for storm pictures anyhow, as they are a dime a dozen.

Obviously, really large convergences can be a problem, and this is one reason that I enjoy chasing in the Dakotas and Nebraska so much.

Sure, the setups may not be as "solid" as they tend to be in the southern/central plains, but it's far enough north to avoid the the "riff raff" element.

Johnd
VE4 JTH

[beaudodson]

From the article

“We had about 200 storm chasers,” said Trego County Sheriff Rich Schneider. “We had to get rough on them to get them to move.”


They had to get rough?

“They seem to think they’ve got special rights,” Schneider said. “I told my deputy if they interfered, to write them up.”

Once that message got passed along among the spotters, they left, he said.

“They just had our highways just plumb plugged up,” he said.

End quote...

[Brian Stertz]

The article was poorly written bird cage liner stuff. I never once saw a highway that was "plumb plugged up" That is a bold faced lie and it is pretty sad that an official would spread this sort of garbage to the media. Wow a highway with traffic on it...that don't happen in these parts Gus...I better tell the media that we had gridlock in Graham County. We had to get those emergency people to that wheat field to see if there was a maimed bull snake or two and we could not get there in time. What a bunch of bunk.

[mike scantlin]

you making fun of a sheriff doesn't add anything but stupidity to this thread. that is no different than them talking bad about us because of a few people.

[Van DeWald]

Here is a screen capture from the Hill City, KS storm, early in it's lifecycle. I've got the spotternetwork.org icons overlayed. Some of these were icons on top of icons, i.e. anywhere from 2 to 4 cars all parked together. And this is just the registered spotters, imagine all of the unregistered spotters out there. Thus, it's pretty easy to see how 200 chasers could converge on the same area, given that this was about the only game in the area at the time.

http://vansvault.org/stormtrack/kgld_20070522_2310z.png

If someone is breaking the law, I don't have a problem with LE doing what they have to do. Putting yourself in their shoes, I'm sure it can be very frustrating having to deal with not only the storm and its effects, but also having to wrangle with an extra 200 storm chasers who may be impeding emergency services because of the bottleneck.

[Greg Stumpf]

I never once saw a highway that was "plumb plugged up" That is a bold faced lie...
Brian,

I take it you weren't on Hwy 23 a few miles north of U.S. 83 on 5/23 around 6:15pm then? The highway was blocked by chasers, and I have the video to prove it. So much so that someone on the 55 simplex made a plea for the chasers to get off the roads so that the scientific data collection vehicles (e.g., mobile radars, Texas Tech mesonet and sticknet crews) could get through. I'm growing very concerned about the future of scientific intercepts now (e.g., VORTEX II).

As I said in another thread - to point the blame solely at "locals" or chasers who aren't part of the "social chaser" community is a cop out.

[Dustin Wilcox]

Its disappointing that an article like this has to be published in a small town newspaper, the article I am sure will deal chasers a significant black eye as it will certainly alter many of the general public's view of chasers in that town. From what I observed there were a lot of chasers in the area, however compared to other convergences I have witnessed everyone seemed to be behaving, at least from what I witnessed. Much of the chase for me was spent on country roads and the only annoying behavior I witnessed was cars stopped in the middle of a country road during the tornado, and I think they may have been stuck and had no choice. From what I witnessed the article certainly stretched the truth however I suppose areas were I was not present could have been different, there were a lot of chasers yes, but I have a hard time believing they inhibited the "officials" from serving the public in any way.

[Jayson Prentice]

The article has some good points in it, the fact that there were probably some 200 chasers out there and I can bet you that there were vehicles pulled over on both sides of the road. Most of the time you can't get your vehicle completely pulled off the road and thus the highway there was likely one lane for the most part. So it is likely that other vehicles were having trouble getting through the area...

But, what I don't like about this article is trying to relate a whole group of people like 'freelancers' into a bunch of idiots that are all over the road. Plus, some parts of the story just don't seem to make sense; starts off about storm chasers and how they were creating a problem then there is this line, "Once that message got passed along among the spotters, they left, he said." Spotters are usually in one spot out of the way and I highly doubt they would just leave?? The story just doesn't make much sense when you read through it and I won't get into the sentence about university chasers and that stuff...

Overall the story definitely isnt' a good one for the chasers. The fact that we have EM's and sheriffs and the such having big problems with us doesn't bode well either. Despite this, the article isn't a very good one as far as how it is put together, maybe I'm nitpicky here, but the thing just doesn't make sense the way it skips around...

[rdale]

We keep talking about "the black eye" ever since Twister (sheez, that was a long time ago!) -- but does it really matter? Let's say everyone in this town (how many is that?) reads the article.

So what?

[Darin Brunin]

So much so that someone on the 55 simplex made a plea for the chasers to get off the roads so that the scientific data collection vehicles (e.g., mobile radars, Texas Tech mesonet and sticknet crews) could get through.

I find that statement to be pretty ironic since I have heard stories about certain data collection vehicles blocking roads this year.

[Greg Stumpf]

I find that statement to be pretty ironic since I have heard stories about certain data collection vehicles blocking roads this year.
My gloves are off! ;)

Actually, I quite agree - the data collection vehicles need to exercise the same precautions. But the point I was trying to make is that if there are road blockages caused by chasers, then scientific data collection could seriously be hampered.

I can remember the days back in Vortex I (94-95) when we discouraged "tag-alongs" by politely asking them to give us some room for our data collection efforts. Those simple days are gone forever. So, one might ask - what would be the suggestion? What will be an effective way to give berth to folks who are really serving scientific needs and the needs of the public (spotters, EMs, first responders), yet balance the desires of the general chase population?

[Josh Murfield]

From the article

“We had about 200 storm chasers,” said Trego County Sheriff Rich Schneider. “We had to get rough on them to get them to move.”


They had to get rough?

“They seem to think they’ve got special rights,” Schneider said. “I told my deputy if they interfered, to write them up.”

Once that message got passed along among the spotters, they left, he said.

“They just had our highways just plumb plugged up,” he said.

End quote...

Ugh..... I realize it's frustrating to law enforcement in rural areas to have to deal with traffic, but it's ridiculous for them to think they can just kick everybody out of their county if they appear to be watching/chasing storms!

[Joey Ketcham]

The article was poorly written bird cage liner stuff. I never once saw a highway that was "plumb plugged up" That is a bold faced lie and it is pretty sad that an official would spread this sort of garbage to the media. Wow a highway with traffic on it...that don't happen in these parts Gus...I better tell the media that we had gridlock in Graham County. We had to get those emergency people to that wheat field to see if there was a maimed bull snake or two and we could not get there in time. What a bunch of bunk.

You may not have seen it personally, but this picture taken yesterday by Bill Hark says it all:

http://www.harkphoto.com/052307chasers.jpg

Look at the amount of people standing in the middle of the road. I can see why that would be frustrating to first responders (police, ems, firefighters).

[rdale]

And the fix is SO simple... I assume pulling off on the edge of the roadway is illegal in most states, but I'm sure that's not something the police would care about.

But it does provide a way to kick you out, and standing in the middle of the road is quite the open advertisement to PD!

[Justin E. Reed]

SO FRECKIN GLAD that the SE U.S. has not the best chase terrain for once. Keeps alot of people at bay, but if you know where to be and the topography and all that, you can get incredible views. Especially in broad river valleys or basins. Somewhat descent terrain is the SE part of the Nashville Basin, where Murfreesboro, Franklin, and Shelbyville are. Theres a good bit of flat land in Rutherford County(my home county) that is very chaseable, and you can use the knobs and hills to your viewing advantage. Good luck to all those in the Plains, its only going to get more congested.

[rdale]

I don't think terrain has anything to do with it... If the heart of severe weather was the southeast, chasers would be there.

[Tony Cook]

I'd say terrain has at least some bearing on my decision whether or not to chase a given setup. I am much more apt to drive 500 miles to the TX panhandle than I am to the Arkansas Ozarks, all other parameters being equal.

TonyC

[bill mudd]

It's apparent that in 5 years there will be MORE chasers vying for the same storms.
So the 200 could become 400, no?
Five years ago WAS there 100 there? I dunno know - probably not.
You cant deny it - the numbers dont look good, there are more and more every year.

Then what? MORE road BLOCKS? Probably, if they can beat you to it, yes.
"You can pass here if you are a student, ect...." (and the early ones bag the storms by beating the block/closures).

So itll be one more factor besides weither or not the cap breaks! Itll be " have they closed the road yet?" and the radars will show "road closures" right next to hail size.

Weither this article was written right or wrong or whatever TIMES ARE A CHANGIN. Those 200 showed up for a non weekend event, imagine if it was a weekend? There would have been more, NOT less, NO?

[Joey Ketcham]

I'd say terrain has at least some bearing on my decision whether or not to chase a given setup. I am much more apt to drive 500 miles to the TX panhandle than I am to the Arkansas Ozarks, all other parameters being equal.

TonyC

Same here. As close as I live to the Arkansas border, I never have and never will chase in Arkansas.

[Justin E. Reed]

Also left this out, its a little more populated and forests, lots and lots of trees. But its not that bad, you can actually catch descent storms in the SE, maybe not the bombs of the Plains, but hey, we see our good share. Only those that know the SE, quite experienced, and even want to, could ans should chase the SE. Just stay away forom the Ozars, Appalachians, Cumberland Plateau, and Florida. Our storms are only trumped by our people, I think everyone should visit at some point IMO.

[rdale]

Not to stray off target - but if you're saying that climatologically the southeast got all the big storm systems and the midwest just had the periodic events, you'd stay focused on the midwest and miss 75% of the big ones because of terrain?

[Brian Stertz]

I was making reference to the fact that US 283 was being mentioned as being "plumb plugged up". It was not plumb plugged up. Sure there was a 10 on the chaser convergence parameter there but plugged up is a huge stretch. I remember the days when seeing 1-2 other chasers was an oddity....now factor that by 50 to 100 and that does mean more traffic. I guess what needed to be presented in that article was a second side of things, and certainly more factual items and less off the cuff/heat of the moment type of reactions. I guess once again the chase ethics/resonsibility hornet's nest once again has had a rock thrown at it. The hopes are that chasers can act as respectfully and responsibly as possible, and that LE and EM folks can chill out. Everybody has their own claim to stake while chasing but it's the method to the madness that starts and gets the fire roaring.

[Justin E. Reed]

No bombs as in explosive thunderstorms that get outta control in moments.

[fplowman]

On the 5th of may i found emergencey services and road crews blocking roads themselves.. Telling us we could not pass..

So us blocking a road is probably favorable would it not be? We are helping them by blocking the road.. really though.. Its just them being whinners.. I haev never seen a road BLOCKED and if emergency personell wants through they are never told they cant everyone moves.. Isnt this so.

Welcome to the new America!

[Dick McGowan]

There's nothing that says "Protect and Serve" like.....a sheriff writing chasers tickets while a tornado is on the ground.

[Brian Stertz]

Funny thing that day was that we chatted with a Trego Co. deputy sheriff who pulled up south of the countyline...and he was glad that we were around to explain what we were seeing as the supercell organized. I found no "ill will" there and was glad that he was interested in knowing what was going on. I guess not all of the LE types were stressed out that day.

[Justin E. Reed]

You can think the one's that are breaking the law, I have ABSOLUTELY NO REMORSE for those that get caught breaking the law. That's why we have them , you break it, ticket. I'd allow 10 over the speed limit, thats it, you all that speed like crazy(over 10) try and drive with one hand on the wheel and the other with a camera, and cut people off , ticket, hell, even jail time if you f up good enough. It's the yahoos and crazy a's that make it bad for everyone because I guess thats what they base this off of. Now for roadblocks, they are probably there for a dang good reason, don't get po'd because they're blocking your path, just turn around and find a different route, it's not the end of the world, theres always going to be more storms and tornadoes. Now for those that help out one's that got hit by a tornado or something and rescue and or comfort them, I wish I could give you all and award and I place you all on another level, that is above and beyond, Bravo zulu( military for stand up job).

[Skip Talbot]

A few chasers in the roadway shouldn't be a problem. That's why emergency vehicles have lights and sirens. If there is still road blockage, just plow right on through those tripods and push those cars into the ditch. Most chasers leave their engines running anyway, so they could also just move the cars manually too.

http://www.tardsite.com/images/no_parking.jpg

[John Diel]

Here's a few questions I would pose to the reporter and his sources. On the given incidents reffered to:

1. Were Emergency Services hampered in any way in responding to emergencies?

2. Were any traffic laws actually violated?

3. Were Local Storm Spotters hampered in getting to their assigned positions?

4. Was Emergency Management hampered or prevented from doing their assigned duty?

5. Was anyone injured or delayed help because of traffic issues?

[Darin Brunin]

My gloves are off! ;)

Actually, I quite agree - the data collection vehicles need to exercise the same precautions. But the point I was trying to make is that if there are road blockages caused by chasers, then scientific data collection could seriously be hampered.

lol........Yeah, I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything. I should have elaborated a little bit more that if there is a problem, it's an all around problem and not just plain old chasers causing mayhem. Everyone makes mistakes out there in the heat of the moment and if people realize their mistakes hopefully they will learn from them in the future.

About the article? Oh well, let that crappy journalist from Hays try to write a critical article on something that they have no idea about. It only makes them look like fools when they don't write about both sides of the story.

[Warren Faidley]

My experience of late (and over the past 20 years -- as of this weekend) is that the majority of serious problems are with local yahoos and Kingon cruisers -- not experienced chasers. Again, as long as you are parked off the roadway and not obstructing traffic flow or intersections, you are not committing any traffic violation. You also have the right to pull off the road is there is pending danger, e.g., a tornado or Godzilla hail crossing the road. I think a lot of this frustration by local officials is generated from "turf" protection. I experienced the same thing when I was a newspaper journalist. Some people in authority simply do not want others around when something cool is about to happen, or they fear someone with a camera might capture them doing something out of line. (With YouTube there is a logical argument here). I saw several law enforcement vehicles (and a few chasers - locals) drive right under the rapidly rotating, low, massive wall cloud yesterday near Stinnett. A violent tornado could have dropped at any second. The cops were doing their job to block traffic, although they underestimated the position of the approaching lowering and would have been square and up-close in my video viewfinder if a tornado would have touched down. It would have been very difficult to release that footage.

Warren

[rdale]

We are helping them by blocking the road.. really though.

That is absurd... In what way would you be helping firefighter response by blocking a roadyway?

[Steve Miller OK]

rdale: look up the word sarcasm when you get a chance.
Those who have recommended the reporter get the chasers side of the story are on the right track. I’m sure the link to this thread has been sent to said reporter about 400 times now so maybe contacting one of us about this issue will be in our future.

[rdale]

He called them "whiners" in the same paragraph - doesn't sound like sarcasm.

[Mike Umscheid]

While not expressly mentioned in the article, I think a factor in the frustration may be just pure dumb-luck in location. Two of the greatest chaser convergences in the last several years have now occurred in the same exact area. June 9, 2005 was where? Graham and Trego County, KS. Some frustration was expressed about this issue when I did the Trego County spotter training in 2006. It is a complex problem to deal with and the County EM and LE personnel certainly have valid concerns. Imagine if there truly was a significant tornado causing damage and the shear numbers of chasers prevented the necessary flow of traffic along a major US Highway? Sure it did not happen this time (major damage with large EMS response), but just imagine the same chaser convergence.. or even larger than that (say in a couple years?) with a Greensburg-type disaster? The Greensburg event did not draw a convergence of this size because of several factors (time of day, difficult forecast with chasers dispersed all over, etc).

This is the 2nd time in 3 years now that a 100-200+ chaser convergence has occurred in Trego/Graham County and that is probably a factor in the reason for the story... Perhaps. I think Harper County, KS has shared the same frustration if I recall correctly, given that particular "hot spot" the past several years.

Interesting dynamic. I can't wait for my chasing time off in late June up north, when the large majority of "chaser vacations" are over and done with :-)

[John O'Keeffe]

Why don't we bring the lottery system to storm chasing. Each storm chaser would pay $5.00 per ticket for a chance to chase the next storm. There would be a total of 25 winning tickets and each winner could bring 1 chase partner with them on the trip. If law enforcement stopped you for any reason, all you would do is show your winning ticket and be on your way. If you did not have the lottery ticket then you would be fined and jailed until the storms move through. Problem Solved!!!!

I am being sarcastic.

[Rob Herman]

NE Kansas NPR radio mentioned the story.

Seamed like most the congestion was around the DOW and tornado intercept vehicles. I don't know if there are DOW groupies out there but I also remember seeing a large crowd around them last year north of GRI. There was one south bound vehicle stopped in the driving lane, probably visiting with someone for a second. That was the worst thing I saw on U283.

No doubt there were a lot of chasers out there Tuesday, but how many of the pulled over cars were just people waiting for the storm to pass?

[David Drummond]

Some of the worst "clogs" I have seen are one or two "chasers" (quotes because I don't know if these are actual chasers or locals) that was to drive 20 under the speed limit and gawk at the storm.....thereby causing a huge line of chaser cars that otherwise would have moved on down the road. The cars are so close no one can pass, and you end up with a quarter mile line of vehicles moving 20 under the speed limit.

That frustrates me more than people speeding and I can very much see how it would hinder any sort of official vehicles.

People.....chaser or not...if your going to drive way under the posted speed limit (for whatever reason) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pull off the road and let that line of cars piled up behind you pass by. If your gonna gawk at the storm pull of the road and actually enjoy it.

[Dick McGowan]

I say everyone quits chasing and leaves this up to the professionals....law enforcement. We need to stop and think about why we are out there in the first place, and why on earth we would like to report what we are seeing, which could potentially save lives.

I didn't see any vehicles on that highway who weren't pulled over safely on the shoulder.

[Jeff Snyder]

Let all play nicely, people. If you have a particular comment about a specific member, please use the PM system to make such a comment. So far, I haven't really seen anything that I'd call a "snide" remark, but it's getting close.

[Brandon Goforth]

Well, I saw a lot of chasers yesterday and most of them were being responsible, but there were a few that were standing in the middle of state highways and even completely blocking main intersections in order to stay parked on pavement. On May 4, I was on the tornadic storm in Ellis County, OK and there were a line of chasers flying down narrow county roads, slamming their brakes, and passing each other at high speeds. Sadly, most of the real "hazardous conditions" out there are created solely by careless chasers. Some people just get so carried away with the weather that they forget about everything else going on around them, and it gets pretty dangerous at times.

[Donald Giuliano]

I realize I'm preaching to the choir for the most part here, but figured I'd post anyway in the (probably unlikely) event someone finds my observations and thoughts on the matter useful.

Just because storm chasers sometimes get bad press from LE officials doesn't mean there's no reason for it. We need to look at this from their perspective, too, and local LE's mission (protecting the residents of their township/county) is a lot more important than ours, especially since the vast majority of us are primarily doing this for our own pleasure. Yes, we chasers help them out sometimes by assisting them in this task in varying ways, but I think we need to remember that they're the ones who have been conferred the authority to protect the citizens in their jurisdiction, not us, and we need to respect that and do what we can to make their jobs easier instead of more difficult.

Now with respect to 5/23, I certainly saw my fair share of people clogging the roadways with bodies, tripods, and vehicles (I'm half-surprised there weren't lawn chairs), and I can assure you these were not all locals or chase vans. Yes, these chasers were in the minority, but it only takes a few to cause a serious problem, and even veterans can make boneheaded errors at times. I know I have, such as on March 28 when my wife yelled at me to get away from the road, and I suddenly realized I was standing mere inches from the pavement with traffic moving at 70+ mph--not the smartest idea, and undoubtedly annoying to anyone driving past. Anyway, sure, folks eventually got out of the way 5/23 and let us pass each time, but not before we were forced to repeatedly come to a near-standstill on multiple highways. Combine that with cars not fully pulled off the road (90% of the car off the pavement does not count) and people chaotically getting in/out of them from all sides, and it was simply not safe to drive anything even remotely close to the speed limit in some areas. If I were a LE officer I might very well have a negative view of storm chasers, especially after witnessing a few situations like that. Heck, I might even feel pressured to write people up even with a tornado on the ground, just to get people off the road so first responders can get through more smoothly once the tornado has moved on.

Another thing that seems to be a significant problem is cars travelling very slowly on highways and essentially blocking traffic even though they are moving (I got stuck behind a friend who has plenty of chasing experience doing exactly that on March 28). If you're going to go really slow because a storm looks interesting, please just pull off so everyone else can continue on their way. There's no reason to treat a state highway like a residential neighborhood, and I'm sure locals are quite annoyed by it--I know I am as a chaser. We really need to do all we can to make sure we think of residents first, and ourselves second, at all times. This is not an easy task in the heat of the moment (I'm hardly perfect myself), but if that's the attitude we collectively work to have, these problems would be much more isolated.

[Terry Tyler]

its only going to get worse from here on out...especially in the plains states...

ive seen video with all those chasers out there, and i never understood the shear number of chasers till i was out on a storm...and there werent nearly as many chasers as ive seen on some videos...

the truth of the matter is, as with anything...you cant stop people from acting foolish or going out and doing there thing...more and more people are going to want to go out and see storms and all that, and im sure its going to come to a point thats going to be negative for storm chasers...

personally, i think its inevitable...ive heard people mention cars cresting hills and hitting stopped cars, lightning striking people...

while i and other people may show respect while chasing storms, there are always those few who will not respect the meteorological or ethical aspects of storm chasing, and its those people who will inevitably make it very difficult for the professional storm chaser in the near future...

luckily, im one of the few who chase the south...so, i dont see many chasers...i can clearly see reasonable explanation for emergency management personel and cops to get angry with unruly chasers...and im sure its easy to judge all chasers as the same when your trying to deal with 7 or 8 carloads of people blocking a highway during a potentially deadly storm...

that could be very bad for the honorable chaser...

bottom line, it is up to the individual and you cant make someone care...

[Jim Zandonai]

I have never been to a chase event like that where there is hundreds of chasers out there so I cant really give a specific instance or advice. I can say from chasing up here however that although the plains is the place to be chasing around here for years has been great. True storms are fewer and supercells far between but there have been some fantastic storms in this area like the Roanoke IL one for instance that are great chase days..and dont have hundreds of people around there..even on the best days I have never seen more then a few in IL and WI. Again obvoiusly the plains is the place to be but one can always wait for stuff around here if it becomes too much of an issue down there which it seems like it is. Alot of conditions up here on good days get overlooked..sometimes.
Chasing correctly is being smart and courteous and safe. Although in the heat of the moment when going after a cell or watching one its easy to get sidetracked and we do somethnigs that arent smart at times.
When I chase its obviously because I enjoy it but I also do it to report to the NWS if theres something to report as I am a trained spotter, my 'job' is to report.
Be safe...

[Paul Knightley]

Well, I must admit it's hard to comment on this objectively, seeing as we fly over from the UK to add to the "clog". All I will say is that we always pull well off of the road, and remain well off of the highway when filming. And another things, we ALWAYS signal when we're either pulling over, or taking another road, something which doesn't always seem to be present in other vehicles (chasers or normal traffic!).

For a lot of the KS chase, we stuck to the dirt roads - much less traffic, and many more photo ops!

[Mikey Gribble]

I had problems early in the day on the Hill City storm right after it went up North of Garden City. One of the "scientific groups" caravan cars decided to park their cars (3 of them) in the middle of the road to shoot a scene of two girls jumping in their car. Apparently they are attempting to make some sort of a video. As I approached them doing this some guy was standing behind the cars motioning for me to slow down. I thought that was pretty audacious considering he was the one parked in the middle of the road shooting a movie. Once the storm went tornado warned we never had any problems with traffic because we opted for the back roads, which was a HUGE mistake BTW. Those were some sloppy roads. The whole time we were on them all I could think about was how long was it going to take me to find a farmer and get a tractor to pull me out after I buried my car in the ditch. Luckily that didn't happen.
Then on Wednesday I was on the storm just West of Buffalo and saw one of the worst, if not the worst inconsiderate behavior I have ever seen from a chaser. I was driving down a highway and was going to turn North on a dirt road to get closer to the updraft base, but when I came up on the road I was going to turn on it was blocked by a suburban parked length wise across the road. Apparently they had been driving down the highway and decided to pull off on the shoulder, but instead parked their huge suburban parellel to the highway on the entrance of the county road. They had their tripods set up in the middle of the road on the other side of the car, so it's not like they were just making a quick stop. We had to pull off into the grass to get around them. They stared at us like we were the ones doing something wrong. It was unbelievable. The vast majority of the people on here would know who they were if I called them out (because of a catchy name not because of impressive chasing), but I won't because I am not sure if it was their car or somebody they were with. I am pretty sure it was their car though.
I will be the first one to admit I speed, but you are never going to catch me blocking the road or putting anyone else in danger other than myself. I think the locals are largely responsible for most of the bad behavior, but there are other serious chasers doing some pretty stupid things as well (including myself).

[Paul Knightley]

I should just add that on this day, we ended up in Ellis, KS, and as we got some food from the service station, a lot of worried folks who were travelling east on I70 had pulled off at the garage to let the storms move on by. We spoke to some of them, and when they realised we were chasers, they started asking us questions about whether it was safe to move on of wait back...we obviously told them to hold on back for a while...they were ALL very appreciative of the information we had given them, and very grateful.

[Brian Emfinger]

I was wondering if all the people following the DOW were with them or just tag alongs? They had quite a following.

[Mikey Gribble]

I agree with Jeff's original post on the first page about how these people aren't recognizing chasers for the public safety service we provide. Most chasers are just out there to chase, but there are also quite a few that make reports that find their way back to the public. I would like to think that chasers do a lot more good than harm. Not that that excuses bad behavior, because it doesn't. I don't think it matters a whole lot anyways because there is no way for anybody to ever regulate or stop us from chasing.

[John Haas]

So what stage of cancer do you all think we are at now? I can’t say its terminal, but not one of US storm chasers can tell anyone else they don’t have the right to chase storms. It just keeps growing and growing. Shoot, people come in from all around the world to chase. It was discussed in other posts how storm chasers could prove their salt by mandating some type of training or certification. But even if we could, the roads would still be saturated with chasers. It isn’t going to stop. It’s just the way it is.

I don’t believe the sentiment against storm chasers is everywhere, yet. The people of Greensberg, KS or the police weren’t bitching about chasers when we were helping dig the folks out of their basements. However, I’m starting to read the same stuff over and over about the sheer number of chasers on the road and the yahoo’s reckless driving.

I could say I’m and EMT or have a ham radio license or whatever to help with the “Law”. But that still isn’t going to solve the issue of all the chasers who are clogging up the highways and such. I’m not saying this to rant. I’m just saying that more and more people are chasing, and it’s going to get worse. People are in love with weather.

[Jason Boggs]

I saw several law enforcement vehicles (and a few chasers - locals) drive right under the rapidly rotating, low, massive wall cloud yesterday near Stinnett. A violent tornado could have dropped at any second. The cops were doing their job to block traffic, although they underestimated the position of the approaching lowering and would have been square and up-close in my video viewfinder if a tornado would have touched down. It would have been very difficult to release that footage.

Warren

I can also attest to this wall cloud and traffic being blocked in Stinnett. In my opinion, the police didn't block traffic into Stinnett soon enough. I also saw people driving into town right under the 1st tornadic wall cloud. I was thinking to myself, boy if these people really knew what they were driving under, they would get the heck out of there. Like Warren, I also thought that a large tornado was about to develop right in town. When the 2nd tornadic wall cloud formed and went towards Stinnett, the road finally got blocked. I was actually relieved because it could have really been bad news if a tornado had formed with people driving into town. Stinnett dodged two bullets yesterday within 15 minutes apart.

Not saying that I'm better than any of you, but I think it definitely helps that I chase for a TV station. Except for the Brice incident, I have been treated very well by local authorities because they KNOW that I'm out there to help save lives. I know most of you are out there to enjoy what you do and save lives also. But there are some people who never call in reports because they think someone else will or has already done so. I got a Media Pass from the police department here in Amarillo and it has definitely helped. Yesterday in Stinnett, the road was still blocked when the wall cloud was well out of Stinnett. I went to the road block and told the police that I was with the media and showed her the media pass and she let me through because she KNEW that I was there to help save lives. Again, I know most of you call in reports and are there to save lives also, but in the eyes of SOME LE agencies, we are just a nuisance and in the way. I know that 90 percent of the chaser community follows the chaser ethics, but like many have said, it only takes a few spoiled tomatoes to ruin the whole crop.

[Dave Ewoldt]

Didn’t see much in the way of stupidity on the Hill City event. Saw a few idiots in the Texas Panhandle.

I think that people are looking way past where the blame lies here. It’s actually very simple... law enforcement. They seem to have forgotten the meaning of "enforcement". For chasers the rule should be play right or pay up. Easy as that.

My message to anyone that may read this that is a member of law enforcement... do your job. If you see someone out there - chaser or otherwise - who is doing something that is a hazard to others.... WRITE EM! You have the power to change things. I’m sure if big number of "$150 welcome to our county" notes were handed out... people would be watching what they do a little more.

If I get one handed to me, I’ll be glad to put my "X" on the bottom of it.

There doesn’t need to be any "witch-hunts" or anything.... just watch and write people who are causing a hazard for others.

Problem solved.

[Brandon Goforth]

Then on Wednesday I was on the storm just West of Buffalo and saw one of the worst, if not the worst inconsiderate behavior I have ever seen from a chaser. I was driving down a highway and was going to turn North on a dirt road to get closer to the updraft base, but when I came up on the road I was going to turn on it was blocked by a suburban parked length wise across the road. Apparently they had been driving down the highway and decided to pull off on the shoulder, but instead parked their huge suburban parellel to the highway on the entrance of the county road. They had their tripods set up in the middle of the road on the other side of the car, so it's not like they were just making a quick stop. We had to pull off into the grass to get around them. They stared at us like we were the ones doing something wrong.

I believe I came across this exact same incident yesterday with the storm that developed a lowering over Rosston, OK. I was driving west on highway 64 to catch up after the first storm fell apart over Buffalo. I tried to turn north on a muddy county road to get into better position just a couple of miles east of Rosston when I found that the entire road was blocked by 2 chase vehicles and there were 2 women on the other side filming. I had to swing way off into the grass to get around them, and yes, it was very frustrating. I believe there were 3 other chasers that had to do the same thing to get around, one was Channel 4 news I believe, then a darker vehicle, then us, and I believe there was someone behind us. Anyways, I'm assuming you were part of the convoy trying to get around the ridiculous mess scattered across the intersection.

[mcrowther]

I I ever see ANY chaser blocking the road, I do the following- lean on the horn, then if necessary stop, get out and tell them politely but very firmly to get the &%$#@#$ out of the road!

[Mikey Gribble]

It sounds like you saw the same two women (that get attention for their catchy name instead of their accomplishments as chasers; hint, hint) doing this that I did Brandon. I wasn't with any other cars when I went around them though. There wasn't anybody around us at that point, which just goes to show that they either did this multiple times or these two women stayed parked at this same location blocking the road even after other chasers had to go through the grass to get around them.

[Jay Cazel]

All the chasers that I saw were off the road, or 2 to 3 miles west from 283 on dirt roads. I did not really see that many chasers on the Trego Co storm compared to the number on the Nickerson storm, (4-24-07) or the 5-5-07 storms south of Great Bend. The radar pic I have shows 14 on that storm, granted that is spotter net. I did see the sherriff's talking to a few chasers but for the most part everyone was doing what they needed to do. There is always a few bad apple's out there.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/jaycazel/05-22-2007.png

[Tony Laubach]

I find the biggest issue with all the chasers is getting a damn hotel room after dark! LOL

As for the chaser convergence and numbers... anyone here going to quit chasing anytime soon?

*waiting*

I didn't think so... welcome to the new chasing world. Just don't be idiots! :p

[Jeremy Lemanski]

you know, i have been spotting/chasing for about 6 years now and two weeks ago was the very first time seeing another person "Chasing" a storm. This person, i talked to him for a little bit, was in Evansville In. during the deadly tornado a couple years ago and he shot a roll of film of the tornado. he said he sold the prints for $3200. Now, he goes and looks for the tornado. He really doesn't know what to look for, from what i could tell, but yet he is out there.

Now, i just can't even think about an extra 100 of these types of people on the road. Not only does it create traffic problems, but i fear you could have a blind leading the blind situation.
What if one of these people happens to be spotted by another, and they decide to follow, then you have two people, and since if there are two people doing something, it must be right so you get another to follow. Now, you have a dozen or more people following who they think knows what they are doing, but really they are just as "lost" as the rest of them. This could lead to a huge disaster if one of these groups happen to drive into a rainwrapped tornado, park under a rapidly rotating wallcloud and have it drop a tornado, etc. It would make headlines: "Death toll at 10 as group of storm chasers are killing by tornado", when really these people were not storm chasers at all, they were average joes who thought they could drive around with no knowledge and have a thrill.

[Mike Umscheid]

I was wondering if all the people following the DOW were with them or just tag alongs? They had quite a following.

I'm almost afraid to post this as it would surely cause yet another 10-page thread... but I know there's some curiosity out there... but the DOW/TIV does indeed have "quite a following"... it's called "The Discovery Channel"... they have contracted a production crew on the scale of something probably not too dissimilar to "The Deadliest Catch". They came to NWS DDC for about 5 hours of taping a few days prior to May 22nd. I think we saw a total of 26 people come into the office including production, the DOW crew, and TIV crew.

This is all the more reason why I will now never again take a chase vacation anytime from May 15 to roughly June 6 or 7. This year I'm going June 21-July 1 and I'm looking very much forward to it :)

[Mike Hollingshead]

Actually, I quite agree - the data collection vehicles need to exercise the same precautions. But the point I was trying to make is that if there are road blockages caused by chasers, then scientific data collection could seriously be hampered.


This is a way off topic comment, but I always wonder, just how many more supercells do they need to scan? I often wonder why I chase, as after a while, one realizes.....the structure is really largely the same(at least in a general sense of a nice supercell). I mean really. I can't begin to imagine the shear number of differing supercells that have now been scanned by the dows. Is there something they still need to see with the radars? Just something that crosses my mind from time to time.

Sort of on that same subject, and this topic, I saw the DOW groupies on the 22nd as well. I was going north as the DOW was parked OFF THE ROAD on the west side of the highway. The only gripe was what looked like some film crew getting video from the southbound lanes, so the DOW would be in the shot with the storm. Not a big deal, but when there are other chasers barely off the highway on the shoulder, on both sides, and you are trying not to hit them...well it'd be nice to move to the center, and not have to worry about the film crew in the southbound lanes. But, after a while, I wouldn't mind a little pre-tornado human debris. One less chaser clogging up the roads. That's sort of a joke.

I didn't have too many issues the 22nd as once I was on the highway south of Hill City, I used it to get north, then east, to get a bit away from the crowd and get some structure shots. There were a lot o chasers out, that's for sure.

The 23rd seemed worse, especially early on north of May OK. I can understand why that was though, everyone and their dog trying to figure out where to be with the storm cutting off the road. I think it mostly works both ways. People flying 100mph could slow down a bit, and IDIOTS doing 20 in a 60 could get off the freaking road, or drive faster. It would also be wonderful if the blinker would be used when you decide to flip the car around, by whipping it to the left to pull onto something, right across the passing lane some "crazy" person behind you might be trying to pass you with. Can't imagine the odds lasting much longer. Some driver is going to get T-boned something fierce doing that crap.

The worst drivers I saw the 23rd were a couple from the media. I clearly remember thinking, "oh so this is why they get so much crap". You'd think a loved one of theirs was bleeding to death in the car and they were trying to get them to a hospital....and they were very lost in doing so. The 23rd was the worst day I've seen as far as chaser convergence problems. It was really only annoying north of May though. I just left things at that point, then tried a bit harder to stay away from them later...didn't work too well.

In the end, it's probably 95% a numbers deal, with anyone there having the problems, also being a contribution to the problem to some degree. It's that other 5% that seem to make things 500% worse. Oh yeah, and like has been mentioned. Use a freaking gravel road to stop on! My lord what a simple, effective concept, that is used by so few(probably 25% of the group). I will drive back to a highway from a mile or so of on a gravel road, and there will be a big cluster of vehicles using the shoulder on the highway. Changing that would drastically help matters. Cops can certainly be writing tickets for that stuff, when things aren't so wild yet. They should. Stop writing articles and start writing tickets! Perhaps using the law can help.

[Aaron Kennedy]

I often wonder why I chase, as after a while, one realizes.....the structure is really largely the same(at least in a general sense of a nice supercell). I mean really. I can't begin to imagine the shear number of differing supercells that have now been scanned by the dows.Except the Dows aren't seeing the entire supercell typically... and like Howie's group, are primarily looking at the tornadocyclone

We are still in need of some decent dual-doppler STORMscale datasets IMHO. That said, I do expect results. If you intercept tornado after tornado, it better be for additional knowledge. I'm not familiar enough with the DOW's operation, but I did see them presenting at the latest SLS. The commerical (TV) aspect is pretty disturbing in my opinion, however.

[fplowman]

I was wondering about those who "dont really chase" but like to hang out and criticize and stir trouble. I was wondering about what they think about this situation. Anyone?

[Darin Brunin]

It sounds like you saw the same two women (that get attention for their catchy name instead of their accomplishments as chasers; hint, hint) doing this that I did Brandon. I wasn't with any other cars when I went around them though.

I guess I am joining the club when I say that the same exact thing with the same exact people happened to us.

[Dan Cook]

COD had a run in with the Discovery Channel people at some gas station when the DOW and the TIV people showed up. They kept filming us and were harassing one of the students with us; kept filming her and wouldn't leave her alone.

When we tried to leave, they kept blocking us and even tried to film one of the drivers up close with the video camera right up against his door as he was pulling out.

The next day, we saw an idiot from Channel 7 in Amarillo speeding through White Deer and got nabbed by a cop. Must not have learned his lesson as the sob soon zoomed passed us again at a very fast speed.

[David Drummond]

The next day, we saw an idiot from Channel 7 in Amarillo speeding through White Deer and got nabbed by a cop. Must not have learned his lesson as the sob soon zoomed passed us again at a very fast speed.

I can't speak for the guy in the Channel 7 truck, but I know in my vehicle (with media graphics on it) I get stopped about every 3rd chase by some cop somewhere. Why? Wanting some information about the storms for the day. I guess he figured a vehicle label with TV station graphics that say STORM CHASER would know, I don't know. Point is, don't assume a chaser you saw stopped was done so for some sort of violation.

That practice annoys me a little when I am trying to get from point A to point B, not that I mind giving them info, just that I don't often have a lot of time for BSing.

[Dan Cook]

No this guy was definatly speeding. He was tailgating our first van for 2 blocks before passing at a high rate of speed.

[David Drummond]

As I said, I can't speak for him. I wasn't saying he wasn't speeding. But do you know for a FACT that is why he was stopped by the officer? Ch 9 black trucks from OKC speed like demons in TX, outside of their area no less and no one ever calls them out on it.

[Dan Cook]

I'm guessing so as it the cop finally pulled him over outside the city.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Dan, you should get a copy of the ticket next time you think that. Do cops really pull over tv people that much?

[David Drummond]

I don't know about the rest of them, but it happens to me quite a bit. Come to think of it, it happened some BEFORE I had the graphics, but not as much as now. There is one cop in Aspermont, TX will pull me over and ask me about the weather EVERY time I go through there and he sees me.

No need to be a smarty about it though. A LOT of assumptions are made and posted on the Internet as fact all the time, when they may simply not be the case.

Would any one of you be pissed if a cop pulled you over to ask about the weather, and I posted a picture of it on the forum and said you got stopped for speeding? I am betting so. I saw someone post something similar in one of their blogs a while back...it was a picture of a group that I was chasing with that day. We had all pulled over on the side to watch the developing storm. Here in about 10 minutes this cop shows up, pulls up behind us and flips on his lights, and proceeds to get out and ask about the weather and chat.

A few days later the blog post was pointed out to me where the picture showed the cop behind us with his lights on stating something about chasers that violated the law. Things are not always as they may first appear.

I'm just saying not always think the worst of people, that's all.

[Brian Emfinger]

This may be slightly off topic but how many of you are chasing incognito? I dont have anything on my car and sometimes I get nearly run off the road and/or taligated because I guess I dont have any anemometers or flashing lights. I was pleasantly surprised yesterday to see I am not the only one who doesnt have all that stuff as there were quite a few "unmarked" vehicles out there.

And I have been given a ticket while chasing in a news vehicle - Kiowa, Ok (south of McAlester) and I was only going 5 over and he even wrote me up for no insurance since they didnt have a updated insurance card in there. We did fax him proof the next week and he dropped the no insurance. I was pulled over a few other times for questions but usually they would just follow me till I stopped then they would do the questioning.

[Brian Stertz]

Yeah that is the way to go Brian...been doing this for over 3 years now and less is better IMO. Cops often seem to be drawn to the colors black and red too so avoid those colors as well if renting a vehicle.

[rdale]

I was stopped in the chase van coming back from a tornado (ended up being straightline) -- but it was by a state trooper for 5 over. MSP is not friends with anyone, I've never had a problem with the locals. Fortunately a car hit a deer up ahead so he had to bail before writing...

[Jesse Risley]

I was stopped in the chase van coming back from a tornado (ended up being straightline) -- but it was by a state trooper for 5 over. MSP is not friends with anyone, I've never had a problem with the locals. Fortunately a car hit a deer up ahead so he had to bail before writing...

Haha..I can beat that..ISP wrote me for 38 mph in a 35 mph zone during a special enforcement detail two summers ago, and no I did not give the guy any attitude to "deserve" a ticket that strict.

We talk about this topic all the time, but I think it's a matter of individual officer discretion. Some LEOs will have a hard on for chasers, and you can expect tickets for breaking the law, whereas others will continue to stop you and ask about the weather.

We're not going to change the bad driving habits of every chaser, but hopefully a few of us think about the image we portray next time we're behind the wheel. Showing common courtesy on the road can go a long way towards setting a more positive public perception towards chasing.

[Jack Carlson]

I was wondering about those who "dont really chase" but like to hang out and criticize and stir trouble. I was wondering about what they think about this situation. Anyone?

I might fall into the category of one who does not get to get out and chase that often (I don’t think I am a pot stirrer though ;) )... I had a long rambling dissertation on why I thought a battle between chasers and local officials happens but I think I can put it in simpler terms that I am sure most of us already know…

Chasers = ProTornado
NonChasers and Local Officials = AntiTornado

Now before everyone rips me a new one, this is just a perception which I think most locals have… And unfortunately, all it takes is one bite into a rotten apple to forget all the good ones in the same bag, that is human nature… So next time you think you're being persecuted just because you are a chaser, remember it is not a fight you will win, all it will be is more ammo for the local to think they way they do about chasers…

[Greg Stumpf]

As for the chaser convergence and numbers... anyone here going to quit chasing anytime soon?

*waiting*

I didn't think so... welcome to the new chasing world. Just don't be idiots! :p
Tony,

Do you actually think those who've quit chasing are going to be on the social forums anymore? Hence the silence.

I know of several ex-chasers who have either given it up or have severely curtailed their hobby because of all the crowds now. Some are long-time veterans. It is happening.

I'm like Umscheid as well with regard to scheduling my chase vacation - in mid-June. I made this decision about 8 years ago (after "Sitka Day" in 1999) when I realized that I would rather enjoy my vacation when fewer others were. The same strategy is used for other places I like to vacation (e.g., Yellowstone in October).

Hmmmm....I probably shouldn't give away any more of my "avoid the crowds" secrets on a public list!;)

[Brian Stertz]

This spring the events have been very focused on single or double targets and this has put the concentration of chasers into a small area all at one time. Scott Currens and I were talking about that on our latest chase that this spring has been unique in that manner. The March 28th event was a bit more spread out, but the bulk of the chasers stuck to that southern Texas Panhandle target and had some great chasing there on the somewhat limited road grid between Silverton and I-40. Just wondering what June will hold for this trend to continue. June events are often in clusters or individual rogue supercells...so things may actually get worse with this convergence issue.

[Tony Laubach]

Do you actually think those who've quit chasing are going to be on the social forums anymore? Hence the silence.

Of course not... hence my remark. Most speaking on the topic of crowded roads are adding to the numbers themselves; myself included. I hate the crowds as much as the next person, but as long as I am adding to the crowds... well yeah... LOL

I try to do my part; shove three others in my van and keep the number of Colorado-knuckleheaded vehicles to a min.

As for my chasing vacation; I go through the first weekend in July, so I'm also hopeful to enjoy a few quiet weeks on the road towards the end of my trip.

I think the economy will take its course at some point... whether it be car-pool chasing; people just not chasing, or whatever... unless gas does something miraculous, my thoughts are to see less vehicles on the road as an overall trend. Obviously days like Hill City will occur from time-to-time, but having 50 vehicles out on a marginal slight risk day won't be the norm as many will be waiting for better setups before spending a fortune on gas. Maybe I'm wrong, but as a scientist, I'm entitled to my theories! :D

I guess its like shopping the malls at Christmas... the crowds are inevitable, and if you hate them that much, you don't go to the mall. Most of here, again back to my original comment, don't have that frame of mind... we may hate the crowds or could care less about them, but we still go out. When 200 vehicles full of chasers has that mind-set, you know what's going to occur.

As for the original post on the topic at hand, with 200 vehicles out, there are bound to be bone-headed things done. I can certainly understand the issue emergency folks have with that. Try driving down I-25 in rush hour with over 200 vehicles sitting within a mile or two. It sucks! They're not use to that out there! Seriously... when was the last time you had 200 vehicles sitting on a remote Kansas highway! LOL I'd be a bit crazy, too! :p

[Mikey Gribble]

I am all for people quiting because they don't like the crowds. It will just make more room for those of us who are willing to stick it out. I can't imagine anybody that is really passionate about chasing quitting because traffic slows down a few times a year when you have bad chaser convergence. If you get on the dirt roads it really isn't bad at all. If you get on the muddy roads it is virtually deserted, except for the one or two other idiots that are doing everything possible not to get stuck. IME when you get in closer than a mile or so the're really aren't too many people around unless the updraft base/wall cloud/tornado happens to be directly over a paved road.
I do think that the crowds have been worse this year than any other year, but I agree with Brian on the idea that this has more to do with a lack of a broad target area more than anything else. It seems like there has only been one good storm in each target area on most of the tornado days this year, so everybody that targeted within 100 miles of that storm sucks to it as soon as it becomes apparent that that storm is going to be the only show in town. We went from seeing literally nobody on the Nickerson storm (when it was struggling) to a god damn parade within a 30 minute period. It was unbelieveable.
I have never seen very big crowds in the Dakotas later in the season, especially on week days and it is beautiful country so maybe that is the way to go.

[Jeremy Lemanski]

I was stopped in the chase van coming back from a tornado (ended up being straightline) -- but it was by a state trooper for 5 over. MSP is not friends with anyone, I've never had a problem with the locals. Fortunately a car hit a deer up ahead so he had to bail before writing...

It must very on who works the local posts. I haven't had any problems yet, knock on wood, with the MSP when i was going maybe 5 over and passed one sitting along the road or driving by, but then again i usually stick to the backroads so i don't see too many.

What i really need to watch out for is that one man police force of the small towns around here. They have nothing better to do and usually sit right behind the first building inside the lowered speed limit area and grab the first person who hasn't slowed down enough.

On a completely different tune, one county cop gave a warning to a friend of mine for pulling off the road, getting out of her car, and walking across the road to get her mail. He told her he was arrest her if she ever did that again. :eek:

[Jim Southard]

My thoughts in this post can just be prefaced with one great big FWIW. I too get very annoyed with congestion and traffic - that's one of the reasons I moved out of Southern California a few years back. One of the last things I want to deal with is a traffic jam in a remote area on a sometimes less than optimal road network. What's more, massive convergences are far more dangerous than a traffic jam because of the unpredictable behavior of a large group of highly distracted chasers - and I know, not everyone is like that, but some are, which has led us to these unsafe incidents where it's a minor miracle that nobody has been injured.

Call me thin-skinned, but I just don't want to deal with that anymore. I have altered my chasing style over the years in search of a happy medium. I'm sure others have adopted similar practices, and for others it's old hat, but who knows... since we're having this discussion again, maybe some of my thoughts might be helpful to you.

1. Don't get close.

Often times, you can get a much better view of a storm from a good distance away. You probably would miss developments at the updraft base from a vantage point 5-15 miles distant, but the improved view of the total storm is worth it, IMO. Plus, at that distance you achieve some separation from the convergences near the meso.

2. Calculate your intercepts ahead of time, and arrive early.

This one is tricky, because storm motions can be highly changeable in both speed and direction. But if you know for example, that a storm is 40 miles SW of Town X, moving NE at 20 mph, then you know you have two hours to attempt to position yourself somewhere in the vicinity of Town X, arriving well ahead of the storm. If you beat the crowds, and have time to scout around, you might be able to stake out one of the best (and perhaps safest?) locations early. In addition, while waiting for the storm's arrival, you also get to enjoy the benefits of item (1) above.

The downside to this (or maybe the upside, depending on your opinion) is that if you guess the storm motion incorrectly, you could end up someplace you don't want to be (all hail the hail), or too far away to see what you had hoped for. Plus even if you choose wisely, the chaser convergence may form around you anyway.

3. Seek out "nontraditional" vantage points.

If you're watching a supercell and you have your heart set on seeing a tornado, odds are you'll be sitting with everyone else ahead of the updraft region. Sometimes you can get a nice view of the meso (and developing tornado) from the S, or even the W as long as there's not too much precip wrapping around the circulation. Sometimes from the W you'll be afforded a very impressive view of the updraft, more so if the cloud tower is backlit by the sun. If your view of the tower from the backside remains unobstructed after dark, you can take phenomenal lightning pics.

There are the disadvantages of taking a position behind the updraft... if the storm motions are too fast you'll lose the storm quickly, or if it transitions to HP you won't see much, or that if a complex (squall line or MCS) develops you'll find yourself in the oh-so-exciting stratiform rain region.

4. Go for less attractive targets.

Once storms are going, chasers will naturally flock to the supercells. If the opportunity presents itself, try following a left-split for a while. You'll leave a lot of the crowds behind that way. I'm a bit biased because I personally am fascinated by left-splits. It's cool in a mindbending sort of way trying to match up the structural appearance of a left-split with the theoretical models (wait, I need to be on the northwest side to see the updraft base?). Left-splits can often exhibit the same sort of supercell structure that we all know and love... just a bit backwards sometimes. Plus if you get a really prolific hail producing left-split, I'm sure your reports of softball or larger hail will be very appreciated. Following the left-split over the right-split does tend to decrease your chances of seeing a tornado though... and sometimes the left-splits fire up their warp drives and go rocketing away at 90 mph.


I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir here. I know everyone has their own chasing style and their own goals when they go out. But because a lot of folks are frustrated, I thought I'd just throw out a few ideas from my experiences in getting around the problems that cause me aggravation, and how I came to enjoy chasing again.

[Josh Murfield]

This may be slightly off topic but how many of you are chasing incognito? I dont have anything on my car and sometimes I get nearly run off the road and/or taligated because I guess I dont have any anemometers or flashing lights. I was pleasantly surprised yesterday to see I am not the only one who doesnt have all that stuff as there were quite a few "unmarked" vehicles out there.

And I have been given a ticket while chasing in a news vehicle - Kiowa, Ok (south of McAlester) and I was only going 5 over and he even wrote me up for no insurance since they didnt have a updated insurance card in there. We did fax him proof the next week and he dropped the no insurance. I was pulled over a few other times for questions but usually they would just follow me till I stopped then they would do the questioning.

I'm one of those who chase in a completely "unmarked" vehicle, I suppose I just look like a local out there because of that so I have never gotten any attention. (which is probably a good thing) :)

[Ben Prusia]

I chased this storm in Trego/Graham Counties on Tuesday and I opted more for the non-paved road choices. Sure the roads were muddy in Graham County after the rain but when you have 4 wheel drive and a high base on your car (Xterra), why not? I felt like I was the only car out there. I did not encounter more than 2 cars while driving east from Saint Peter all the way to US 283. While I did join the crowd at US 283, I am going to try my best to stick to the less traveled roads, that is why most of us use GPS?

If you all can remember, the Hutchinson paper also wrote an article criticizing chasers on the Nickerson cell back in April. The article basically said the same things as the article on the Hill City event. The next time there is another large chaser convergence, there is probably going to be another article.

[Greg Stumpf]

I have altered my chasing style over the years in search of a happy medium. I'm sure others have adopted similar practices, and for others it's old hat, but who knows... since we're having this discussion again, maybe some of my thoughts might be helpful to you.
Hey Jim...

SHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

;);););)

[Mikey Gribble]

I did the same thing Ben did on the Nickerson storm and the Hill City storm and stayed on the back roads. I didn't do it do get away from the crowds, but it had that affect. I hardly saw any other chasers on both of those storms until I got on the paved roads. On the Nickerson storm we went down the paved road leading into Nickerson and it was seriously bumper to bumper traffic. We turned North onto a dirt road that was 1 mile West of Nickerson to jog around the NW side of town and there wasn't a single other car out there. The tornado crossed the road right in front of us at the intersection 1 mile NW of Nickerson, so I was very suprised that nobody else was on that road. You had better have 4 wheel drive if you are going to stick to the back roads though. I also have an Xterra and I have almost buried it more than once this year. Most of the roads haven't been too bad though. If you can hit that narrow area where you are directly in front of the mesocyclone, but just barely South of where the heavy precip has already gone through, then you get an awesome view from right under the mesocyclone, no crowds, and decent roads (provided the storm and road networks cooperate).

[Dan Robinson]

Storm chasing is not going to go away. Both sides of this issue are going to have to learn to deal with it and make the best of it, rather than inciting conflict. Newspapers (and all media for that matter) make their money by stirring up divisive issues, so we can expect little help from them. As such, both the law enforcement/EMS side and the chaser side should not let a biased news article be the baseline for our perceptions.

For chasers who obey the rules of the road, there is no problem and no reason to feel guilty for being there. For chasers who disobey the rules of the road, enforce the laws *for them* just as it is done for anyone else on the road, and leave the rest of us (and our reputations) alone!

All of the spotting and ground truth services chasers provide aside - when I hear about hotels being booked across an entire region on a big day, that tells me that chasers are starting to have a big economic impact on these rural areas, probably the likes of which they don't see any other time, ever. The locals have things to gain from us being there and should find better ways to deal with a traffic issue rather than slamming us in their local papers.

[Darin Brunin]

It looks like the story is spreading faster than a wildfire in Southern Florida....

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/may/25/amateur_storm_chasers_get_way/

[beaudodson]

I see this in each article...

“We had about 200 storm chasers,” said Trego County Sheriff Rich Schneider. “We had to get rough on them to get them to move.”


So were they beating chasers? They had to get "rough" on them??? lol

[Bob Hartig]

I've been chasing for a few years now and seen a few tornadoes, but never in the heart of tornado alley nor with the kind of slow-moving, photogenic storms as this week's. Tuesday southwest of Hill City was my first encounter with a nice, slow-moving southern Plains tornado. It was also my first experience with chaser convergence, and I have to say, I was amazed. The only thing missing was the popcorn truck--and this was not on some well-traveled main artery. It was on a backroad of rain-slick Kansas clay.

Did I mention that this was my second experience with wet Kansas clay? Even in my buddy's 4WD, navigating the stuff is like driving in pudding. How on earth is anyone supposed to pull off to the side without getting stuck? We found it hard just to keep moving without getting slurped into the mud, at which point our wheels would most certainly have gotten buried (which, by the way, is exactly what happened in my first encounter with Kansas clay).

Backroads--solitude? Not on the one we took. I can't feel too badly about it since I'm part of the problem, but I want to see the storms just as much as anyone, and I'm learning as I go along. Evidently finding the right storm is only part of the challenge; finding a decent place to park is the other part.

[Jayson Prentice]

Well that story has a bit of a different twist on it though, doesn't make it sound nearly as bad as the previous one. Even the last line kind of shows that us chasers might not be so bad after all... Although that Ralph should definitely watch what he says a bit more carefully, as I think somebody already mentioned this, but if he were to lose all of this 'chasers' I think he would have a hard time tracking the storm by himeself. I love this sentence though "After hearing that they might be ticketed, the storm chasers scattered, he said." So word must have spread damn fast and I can't believe that most of the 200 left after hearing that!! Maybe more like the storm was moving on?? Another thing that bothers me about him is the fact that he points out seasoned 'spotters' like the Univ. of Oklahoma and NCAR. What makes them spotters and not chasers? And I'm pretty sure there are several chasers here that have as much experience as them and at least the same knowledge (no offense to OU or NCAR).

[Mikey Gribble]

I like how Ralph refered to the highways as "ours". Last time I checked the federal government helped pay for state highways and everyone one of the chasers out there that day has just as much right to those highways as Ralph. The funny thing IMO is that cops get hit by tornadoes all the time, but some of them act as if they are on a pedestal when it comes to tracking and reporting on the storms. I haven't heard of too many chasers getting hit by tornadoes on accident. I can understand emergency workers needing unimpeded access when there is structural damage and injuries, but when it comes to reporting accurately on a storm the cops don't bring much to the table. Chasers and spotters are the ones reporting and keeping the public informed and safe, but Ralph is playing it off like most chasers are nothing more than a nuisance. After reading that second article I would love force feed Ralph a piece of humble pie. I have a hard time believing that Ralph isn't embellishing a bit and trying to look tough for the papers.

[Shane Adams]

Who's gonna volunteer to quit? Who's gonna sit out even days and who's gonna sit out odd days so the crowds aren't bad?

Yeah that's what I thought.

Crowds are the state of chasing in 2007 folks. You can either deal with it or let it eat you alive. Nobody has more right to be out there looking for storms/tornadoes than anyone else, I don't care what the agenda is. Are YOU gonna ask (or tell) someone else they shouldn't be there? I know I'm not, cause I don't have anymore right to the roads than the next person.

If you hate crowds, stay home, or chase the low-risk area, or just close your eyes, think of a warm happy place, and hope it all goes away. I too find it a pain in the ass sometimes out there because of the huge numbers, but I can't really point fingers because, like all of you, I'm part of the problem. But it's a problem I'm willing to accept and deal with. Hey, I'm not a hypocrite; I was cussing a lot last Wednesday because we couldn't find a single spot to pull over that wasn't already occupied....made even more excruciating because all I wanted at the time was a place to p#ss. But hey, this is chasing today, and I'll deal with it.

[Ryan McGinnis]

NE Kansas NPR radio mentioned the story.

Seamed like most the congestion was around the DOW and tornado intercept vehicles. I don't know if there are DOW groupies out there but I also remember seeing a large crowd around them last year north of GRI. There was one south bound vehicle stopped in the driving lane, probably visiting with someone for a second. That was the worst thing I saw on U283.

No doubt there were a lot of chasers out there Tuesday, but how many of the pulled over cars were just people waiting for the storm to pass?

Man, there are TONS of DOW groupies. I remember watching the DOWs go by in Republican County Kansas a few years ago... followed by about 20 cars, trucks, and SUVs. I'm sure it annoys them to no end, though I guess it's hard to blame those who follow -- if there's something to see, you're sure to see something if you're where the DOWs are.

[Ryan McGinnis]

It sounds like you saw the same two women (that get attention for their catchy name instead of their accomplishments as chasers; hint, hint) doing this that I did Brandon. I wasn't with any other cars when I went around them though. There wasn't anybody around us at that point, which just goes to show that they either did this multiple times or these two women stayed parked at this same location blocking the road even after other chasers had to go through the grass to get around them.

I believe they are involved in the filming of a reality television show, so it is possible that they were not the ones making the call as to the parking/filming methodologies. National TV crews have a habit of just doing whatever the heck they want to to get the best shot.

[Dan Robinson]

Assuming 350 chasers at any given time anywhere on the Plains during peak season, let's look at some possible numbers.

Gross hotel revenue: $21,000.00 per day
Assuming a $60/night average per person.

Gross fuel revenue: $31,500.00 per day
Assuming 1.7 fill-ups per car per day or $90 average fuel expenditure per day.

Gross food revenue: $15,000.00 per day
Assuming one fast-food lunch, one fast-food dinner, breakfast, snack and drink, plus the occasional sit-down meal ($20 per person per day)

Total gross revenue from 350 chasers: $67,500.00 per day

Assuming two weeks of prime chase time in late May, the total gross revenue received from chasers alone would be:

$945,000.00

Not counting rental cars, airline tickets and tour fee income taxes.

That's nearly a million dollars in gross revenue from chasers during two weeks. It's entirely possible that through a full season (March-June), chasers may pump more than $3 million into the struggling small-town economies on the Great Plains. I'm sure Shamrock will be able to pave a few streets with the hotel tax revenue the county got this week.

[Greg Stumpf]

Assuming 350 chasers at any given time anywhere on the Plains during peak season, let's look at some possible numbers.
Dan,

These are absolutely the best case scenarioes. To refute, even with 350 chasers:

Hotel cost: Most chasers travel from their homes, and go home to sleep at night. The remainder who use hotels are usually grouped up in groups of 2 or more. So that cost is significantly reduced.

Fuel: Only a trickle is going into the local economy for fuel sales. Convenience stores make very little profit from fuel sales (98-99% goes to the gasoline company), and some of the profit is absorbed by the credit card transaction fees (to help, we could pay for our gas using cash, but then that slows us down). Their real profit margin comes from sales of goods from within the store. They only hope that folks who buy fuel come inside to buy more stuff.

Food: Some chasers pack their own lunches and snacks (I try to), but this one is probably close to on the button. Junk food makes the score.

I won't argue that the local economy gets a small boost, but it is probably not a justifiable argument to local officials who are most concerned with public safety.

[Susan Strom]

We talk about this topic all the time, but I think it's a matter of individual officer discretion. Some LEOs will have a hard on for chasers, and you can expect tickets for breaking the law, whereas others will continue to stop you and ask about the weather.

Actually it isn't entirely a matter of individual officer discretion. That officer might be located in some remote county out in the West Grassland of Nowhere, but last time I checked it was American soil, on which, the Fourth Amendment applies.

I'm sorry, but the following items do not denote probable cause:

1. Making a traffic stop just to ask about the weather
2. Pulling someone over on personal bias with no other reason
3. Stopping someone for 3mph over
4. Wanting to flirt
5. Wanting to ask what's inside the chase truck just for amusement purposes

I have been stopped twice in the Plains, but was never cited (reasons 4 and 5). I'm sorry but NOT acceptable.

I'm not anti-cop. Quite the opposite, I've done volunteer work in support of my local PD for 3 years. They are great people there, all of them. I've not met one I didn't like. However, when I'm chasing in the Plains and NO violation whatsoever is being committed...not even a slight suspicion of anything...I'll be looking for a valid reason if I'm stopped. I'm not going to throw my Constitutional rights clean out the window.

[Jesse Risley]

Actually it isn't entirely a matter of individual officer discretion. That officer might be located in some remote county out in the West Grassland of Nowhere, but last time I checked it was American soil, on which, the Fourth Amendment applies.

I'm sorry, but the following items do not denote probable cause:

1. Making a traffic stop just to ask about the weather
2. Pulling someone over on personal bias with no other reason
3. Stopping someone for 3mph over
4. Wanting to flirt
5. Wanting to ask what's inside the chase truck just for amusement purposes



I have to disagree on a few points, but my comments about officer discretion were not intended to apply to cases where someone has broken no laws either. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make here. My comments refer to officer discretion when chasers either break the law or do something that "arguably" threatens their own safety or public safety in general (which may not be immediately illegal but the police can do something). Cops who stop chasers to talk about the weather are at least trying to be friendly and would presumably be on our side.

While it may be a chicken crap stop, the speed limit is the speed limit. If you are breaking the law by exceeding the legal speed limit (all technical analysis aside), you can be stopped and you can be cited and it can hold up in a court of law because I had to pay my ticket for 3 over. I learned this the hard way, even though I disagreed with the logic at the time.

You can't argue that the police can't enforce the law if the offender is only "slightly" breaking the law. Yeah, I think there are bigger things to worry about, but you really can't whine if you were breaking the law and got caught.

[Jason Bolt]

With the storms we have had here this year, all the chasers I have seen have been respectful and several have been out and out helpful. As I've said several times, whenever someone has time to stop and talk to a local EM or LEO it is mostly appreciated. I know I'm preaching to the choir, and the respectable chaser community should not have to make up for the derelict of others but facts are facts. When people block roads, drive reckless, pass emergency vehicles it hurts to chaser community as a whole. We cannot make people stop behaving irresponsibly so instead we can chose to make a positive contribution whenever possible.

Also, I was on the Nickerson storm and, while I was impressed as it was the biggest chaser convention I had ever seen, it also seemed most folks did everything they could to drive respectfully given the congestion.

[Doug_Kiesling]

The problem is that their are three groups of chasers.

Group one: A very small group is the professional weather paparazzi types or the tour groups. The tour groups is just that, there a fraction of the people out there. The Paparazzi, are there to get the shot and then move onto the next storm or project. Don't give a rats arse about being famous, just want to make sure we get a check within 90-120 days of the storm for the video or photo.

The researchers, another very small group (not counting V2 project) and the college groups.

Both of those groups numbers have not changed very much from what I have seen.

Then there are the yahoo chasers AKA The Viral Superstars. Those who see something on TV and say that looks like something I can do...
There are so many people out there now thinking that their going to sell video and be the next viral super star. Only one problem, The Weather Channel news desk is waiting for free video before they spend a dime on any storm chasing footage this season.

The days of the big money chasing for video are dead. Now all that is left is everyone trying to get their 15 seconds of fame. This video pretty much says it all. http://www.currenttv.com/pods/joegets/PD06065 Just a lot of Viral Superstars out there trying to copy what they have seen on TV.

[cdcollura]

I concur with Doug...

Unfortunately, storm chasing will NOT earn you money ... Unless you are with a bonafide news crew or media.

If you are lucky, you might get a video crew to ride along with you, such as a Japanese TV crew that has rode with a chase partner of mine once.

In that case, maybe gas will get paid-for (yeeeahh!), a meal, or hotel, but not much else - You'll break even if that.

Any chase team, from scientists to "yahoos" must respect one another and be very sensitive to their driving and courtesy as well. We all have made mistakes, and I am no exception.

I am guilty of speeding - like many of us, such as rushing to a TOR warned sup or even trying to make a flight out of KC after chasing in the TX panhandle just 6 hours prior!

For any "yahoo" or newbie chaser out there ... I strongly suggest what you are getting yourselves into by taking up storm chasing...

1). Storm chasing is NOT 100% excitement. It's 90% boredom and 10% of excitement in short "spurts" ... That's why there are such things as skydiving and theme parks ;-)

2). Plan on driving many many miles. Boring landscape, traffic, thousands of miles in a car for hours sitting down. If you are the "are we there yet?" type of person, chasing is not for you.

3). Storm chasing is dangerous - Driving in itself is dangerous to begin with. Throw a storm environment into the mix, with large chaser convergences, speeding, distractions, etc - Statistics 101 make the danger more obvious.

4). Respect the hobby as well as yourself and others. Law enforcement is becoming more and more anal and nasty stopping chasers who even speed a couple of miles over the limit now-adays. Use common sense - Don't pass with a hill ahead of you, never pull out quickly in front of traffic, pull OFF the road to take pictures - Signal adequately when doing so - Simple things so none of us look like the wreckless "idiots" we saw in Twister in 1996!

5). Hopefully we will not have to deal with this one - but it is possible in this "line of work": Responding to a "fresh" disaster area. It's happened on May 3, 1999 in OKC, Katrina in 2005, and most recently, May 4, 2007 in Greensburg, KS. You have to stop and help out. I would (and I did in Katrina) - Although the sight might haunt you for the rest of your life ;-(

[Doug_Kiesling]

There is one solution for all the law enforcement and its not banning chasing, it not even making new laws. Not sure how many of you live in the big cities but it takes about 15 seconds for the parking enforcement to issue a parking ticket. All the counties need to do is call in back up on days that NWS says skywarn may be needed. Put the extra explorers out there with parking ticket machines and just start entering license plate numbers and handing out $150 parking tickets.

You can come back and go to court and protest it but how many chasers from out state will travel back to Hays to go to court for a parking ticket.
They can write up a ticket just as fast as the Rental Car companies can check you out and print a receipt from the hip.

100 Chasers @ $150.00, that is $15,000.00 in fines issued in about an hour.
All the county would need to do is issue something to their local skywarn trained spotters to put in their window like a commercial delivery car or truck that can park in no parking zones and everyone else is screwed.

At $15k a day in parking tickets issued to out of area chasers for parking during a non emergency or even in an emergency if your out shooting video and not hiding in a ditch, if I was on the county board I know I would be seeing new income from an outside source that does not affect my tax payers and be all for it.

[Zack Borst]

Hey, I am new but think I could offer some insight into this situation. I was a deputy for 2 years before I had to quit to go to school. The problem with civilians, chasers, etc... basically anyone who is not involved in actual emergency services is simply that while they may want to help, it only takes one to screw it all up. Rather than getting upset at this guy because of what he said you all should be getting mad at whoever it was who screwed up. Groups like REACT, SKYWARN, and ARES usually get a couple of whack jobs who like to think that they report directly to the president. The truth is that when the group has its stuff together and is willing to play nice than they can be a HUUUGE asset, but if one guy acts like an idiot than the entire group is now going to be labeled useless or even dangerous. I am a firefighter/EMT-B on two depts, one home and one at school and have been doing the fire/ems thing for almost 6 years. I have run into situations where civilians have tried to overstep their boundaries and I have told them that if they do not cease what they are doing they will be arrested. Now they are trying to help but that help turns into a hinderence and a situation we don't have the time to deal with.

[Doug_Kiesling]

I have run into situations where civilians have tried to overstep their boundaries and I have told them that if they do not cease what they are doing they will be arrested. Now they are trying to help but that help turns into a hinderence and a situation we don't have the time to deal with.

No Fn Way, you mean like new skywarn spotters taking old Ford Crown Victoria and making them into Fake Police Cars?
My distaste for the chasing community in general is at an all time high which is why I have been off line. Not that I have stopped chasing is that this shizzel has got so out of control, I don't want to be associated or even called a "Storm Chaser" Weather Paparazzi is ok since it is all about get in, get the shot, and get out before anyone sees or has time to react. Just like when Chris and I chased the hurricanes, we were gone by the time police and EMS came back out and just told them as we were leaving where the worst of it was.
But my total hatred, YES HATRED of the yahoo / newbee / DMF without a clue Viral Superstars reached an all time high just over a week ago when I was on a dirt road parked well off the road on what would be called "Bobs Road". I was out shooting some lightning footage and stills when a Cop Car pulls up.
Turns out it was not the police. It was Steele County MN SkyWarn. Yes FN SKYWARN, a couple of kids who just took their skywarn training running around in a police auction car with in grill strobes and strobes on the back dash. Granted they were white and yellow but still they were faking being a law enforecement but they were skywarn so that gave them some kind of authorithaaaaaaaa as Cartman would say. I asked them how they get away with that and they said the police get pissed but they don't care. Another reason why if have almost no respect for anyone with skywarn these days when skywarn spotters drive around pretending to be cops.

[Robert Dewey]

I dunno about anyone else, but I think this thread is a black eye... yep... a one-two punch right to the old looker... lol

[Mike Hollingshead]

Now since this has gone way off topic from the DMF in the road topic. Since Mike wants to pry... As for "Other Clients" it is in the non weather video field which amazingly still pays pretty dang good, no busts, set schedule, and fun gigs.

Mike is kicking himself for falling for this and opening the door.

[Donald Cannon]

1000 mile busts? Tony L. been scoring like a mad man all year. Seems like everytime he drives a 1000 miles he bags something. I don't think you can really call anything a bust if you don't get out and try.

[Doug_Kiesling]

1000 mile busts? Tony L. been scoring like a mad man all year. Seems like everytime he drives a 1000 miles he bags something. I don't think you can really call anything a bust if you don't get out and try.

Tony is a rare exception but yesterday he was chasing and thinking Arbys. I talked to Scott Weberpal yesterday who was about 50 miles from Winnipeg and drove up from Janesville Wisconsin for a total bust. Using SwiftWX with Spotter Network, I was at home, watching all the people go and converge on North Dakota or northern South Dakota and was just shaking my head saying this is going to hurt.

And as for diving vs chasing. Here is the NWS report from Saturday and here is my log.

SPC Report
2144MILLTOWN POLK WI45539250POSSIBLE BRIEF TOUCHDOWN BETWEEN MILLTOWN AND LUCK. PUBLIC REPORT OF TREE DAMAGE AND DAMAGE TO AN OLD BARN (MPX)


My dive computer report...
http://www.weatherpaparazzi.com/images/myspace/052607_divelog.jpg

Like I said, "Other Clients"

I don't think I busted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ztydUpzBLw

[Paul Redmond]

I can honestly say that I have been only in one chaser convergence, in deleware county indiana. I can say that it was briefly chaotic and a little scary, with about 14 vehicles all vearying a passing each other fighting form the best view for a little cheesenado that touched down maybe 1 minute. the amazing part was there were two vehicles behind me when I first parked and one in front of me. Two minutes later, when I looked behind me, there were at least a dozen. I mean just like that all these vehicles converged together from no where. After the tube dissipated, they all scatterred again. Within minutes I was by myself again heading east on state road 28.

I have to concede that larger converges can be a danger both to other chasers and non combantants. My suggestion is to avoid them. Where I chase in south texas (North and south 281, South 16, 37, west on 90, and east on I10 are my usual spring haunts), it does not seem to be a problem. Basically I am the only one I know who is foolish enough to chase is such poor road network areas. Sigh!

[MatthewCarman]

It is not like people have to chase every single set up or chase the best storms every time. If you have seen a few tornadoes already this year why not sit back and take it easy and relax instead of having to be right there with everyone else watching the same thing? Mabey people could take it easy and watch from afar instead of having to have the best view and be as close as possible.

One day there will be 500 people stuck in a traffic jam (chaser convergance) while a very fast and dangerous tornado is coming strait for them and people are going to get hurt. It is like a drain part. When it clogs up nothing can go through it. I would hate to be in a situation like that.

I think I will chase in my own backyard (Iowa) when I get a car and try to not get stuck in a chaser convergance. When I chase I want it to be just me and the storm and a day to remember but I always want to have fun and enjoy myself while I am driving. I love to just drive. If I dont see a tornado well atleast I had fun.

I also dont want to chase every single setup or take 2 weeks off just to chase. If you do it to much then you feel like you need to chase every single setup and get in a bad mood when you bust or have a car break down or have to deal with spending so much money on gas. Who needs that stress?

People need to limit how many times a year they chase or chase more locally so they dont have to deal with these problems.


As of right now I dont think I will ever chase in TX,OK or KS just to many chasers there for me. (I bet you 25-50% of the members here are from those states)

Ps. If storm spotters used a sticker to let cops know who they are what's to say some stormchaser cant copy it and make his own and use it? I dont see how that idea will work.

[Jason Boggs]

It is not like people have to chase every single set up or chase the best storms every time. If you have seen a few tornadoes already this year why not sit back and take it easy and relax instead of having to be right there with everyone else watching the same thing?
It's called passion my brother, it's called passion...

I do agree with you 100% that a tornado will one day take out a clogged road full of chasers who were too close. I can't imagine watching cars try to turn around and go the other direction with a tornado barreling down on them. It won't be a good site, that's for sure.

[Donald Cannon]

I bet when storms are going nuts you can go over to the scuba fourms and read about how selling stormchasing video rocks and scuba video is for the birds.

[Andy Rice]

Tony is a rare exception but yesterday he was chasing and thinking Arbys. I talked to Scott Weberpal yesterday who was about 50 miles from Winnipeg and drove up from Janesville Wisconsin for a total bust. Using SwiftWX with Spotter Network, I was at home, watching all the people go and converge on North Dakota or northern South Dakota and was just shaking my head saying this is going to hurt.




Hah.... yeah after Saturday's Bust in Western Wisconsin.... I actually got in my car and gassed up early Monday to haul to ND..... as I was gassing up I had a reality check..... driving all day and all night for a 5% tornado...... and I turned around and enjoyed my bed that early Memorial Day..... and it was absolutely the right choice regardless of what occured.

At some point you have to counter the obsession with reality.....

Regarding the topic..... I have seen some crazy convergences such as Attica, KS (5/12/04) and even near Great Bend the day after Greensburg..... I have to say that Chasing in Wisconsin/IA/MN/IL is awesome...... and highly recomended.... June/July baby. As long as you know what to expect/not expect regarding the northern forests and the Mississippi River.... it is great non-traffic chase country. Especially in S WI/N IL and Iowa.

[MatthewCarman]

It's called passion my brother, it's called passion....

Good Point.

Yes Andy IA is a good state to chase because it is not crowded and offers some great terrain. Plus we always get a few realy bad outbreaks every year.

May 22 of 2004 that produced 36 tornoades making it one of IA's largest outbreaks. 1-2 days before this another tornado outbreak occured that produced a F2 that went through a valley hitting Bradgate IA and destroying or damaging all but one building in the town.

November (15?) of 2005 that produced a F3 that hit Woodward IA and produced if I remember right over 15 tornadoes.

May 17 of 2006 which produced I think 17 or more tornadoes including one that hit Iowa City and did lots of damage. Also 3 tornadoes reported on the ground at the same time near Muscatine with this outbreak.

Those are just examples that IA usually gets atleast one big outbreak each year if not more.


Having that said another good reason why it is not crowded because most chasers chase in TX/OK/KS/NE and dont drive all the way into IA. I am fine with this. The less people the better.

[Brandon Goforth]

Hey guys, check out this link:
http://www.kfor.com/Global/category.asp?C=5528&nav=menu99_3
In the featured videos section click on "David Payne finds himself inside a tornado". This comes from Channel 4 News out of OKC and basically the first part of this is talking about how dangerous some of the chasers out there were on May 23. Basically stating the same thing we all are mentioning about chasers who block roadways and stand in the middle of highways with their equipment.

[David Drummond]

That's funny. Criticize other chasers for being dangerous then turn around and park themselves under a rotating wall cloud and brag about it. The irony is unbearable.

[Brandon Goforth]

You make a good point there David, lol! Especially when they say chasing should be left up to those who know exactly what they're doing and then...well like you said...park under a rotating wall cloud and get hit by apparently a weak tornado. Nice.

[Mark Sefried]

The problem that I have seen so far that I have been out to the Plains compared to the previous years is that there are a lot more chasers than there used to be. If one or two good cells fire withen 150 miles, everyone and thier mom intercepts them of course. Once you approach the storm cars are on the side of the road partially. Why you may ask? Easy... All the damn good areas to pull off and observe the storm are already taken! So, that leaves most people having to remain pulled off on the road about 90% of the way. For those of us that don't have a 4 wheel drive vehicle, you have to have at least 2 of your tires on driveable pavement once your parked or you possibly may get stuck in the mud/sand when you try to leave. So to sum it up with what I think.. More vehicles=fewer good places to pull off and safely observe the storm.

[Robert Dewey]

... I think the black eye has healed. Any steak that was put it on it has probably rotted away by now :)

Sorry, just trying to bring more humor.

[Greg Stumpf]

Since they've decided to advertise so blatantly online their irresponsible chase behavior, I have no problem no naming names....well, they've named themselves.

This is EXACTLY the kind of behavior that is unfortunately getting the airtime now. Just think about the young chaser wannabee still in high school, seeing this. Who do you think they would likely gravitate toward?

The pot calling the kettle black.

[Paul Knightley]

Maybe a little O/T, but still is relavent to chasing "safety":

I have a problem when I read about people making "huge drives" to get to a storm area. A person may feel they can drive and drive for hours on end, but it's a fact that just 2 hours of continuous driving is enough to cause (possibly unnoticed) fatigue, which leads to a higher risk of accidents. That's why we prefer having 3 drivers - we can rotate as often as required.

Some of the tour companies get their drivers to cover almost 1000 miles in a day - that's too much IMO, especially as they're conveying people around.

[Tarmo Tanilsoo]

Since they've decided to advertise so blatantly online their irresponsible chase behavior, I have no problem no naming names....well, they've named themselves.

This is EXACTLY the kind of behavior that is unfortunately getting the airtime now. Just think about the young chaser wannabee still in high school, seeing this. Who do you think they would likely gravitate toward?

The pot calling the kettle black.

Looks like we just had another blue eye(here in Estonia, we say blue eye). I agree about the worry on media showing wrong chasing. I didn't get to know about real chasing until I started to regularly visit chaser(Mike H, Chris C...)web sites and read about chaser ethics from ST...

[Shane Adams]

Maybe a little O/T, but still is relavent to chasing "safety":

I have a problem when I read about people making "huge drives" to get to a storm area. A person may feel they can drive and drive for hours on end, but it's a fact that just 2 hours of continuous driving is enough to cause (possibly unnoticed) fatigue, which leads to a higher risk of accidents. That's why we prefer having 3 drivers - we can rotate as often as required.

Some of the tour companies get their drivers to cover almost 1000 miles in a day - that's too much IMO, especially as they're conveying people around.

If some of you feel you should only chase 100 miles a day and in some state outsidew of tornado alley to be safe, by all means - go for it. But it's ridiculous to make the general assumption that driving hundreds of miles at a time is dangerous (for people in general). I've been the "Iron Man" of our group for years and somehow I'm still here. Maybe some folks fatigue easily, but I don't like hearing people say that driving is dangerous. Hell, is there anything about chasing that's acceptably safe anymore?? LOL.

You can't be close to storms, you can't block the road, you can't drive in rain, you can't let yourself get stuck in mud, you can't park on the shoulder, you can't drive more than a few hours at a time, an you can't chase where other chasers are.....cause none of it is safe.

It's kinda like auto racing. At the end of the day, it's inherently dangerous to a degree. It's easy to make chasing _relatively_ safe, but it's never going to be 100% safe and secure. I see this trend of trying to coddle storm chasing. Hey, if you feel there's all this danger involved, you can do something about it.

I'm not saying being a moron out there is ok - certainly it's not. But this nitpicking about every little detail being dangerous...I feel like I'm 5 years old again and mommy is chewing me out for not looking 45 times before I cross the street. Again, I offer my blanket solution for all who are concerned with the state of chasing: You no likey, QUIT :D

BTW: Currently northbound on US81 south of Concordia, on a marathin chase trip. My partner and I are on 6 hours' sleep between us. Oh the humanity.

[Robert Edmonds]

Maybe a little O/T, but still is relavent to chasing "safety":

I have a problem when I read about people making "huge drives" to get to a storm area. A person may feel they can drive and drive for hours on end, but it's a fact that just 2 hours of continuous driving is enough to cause (possibly unnoticed) fatigue, which leads to a higher risk of accidents. That's why we prefer having 3 drivers - we can rotate as often as required.

Just to get Amarillo from where I am I guess I'm going to have to take 3 long breaks now. I might as well make getting to Dodge City a two day long trip. I'm sorry I have to laugh, I'm just thinking back to all the long hauls I've had to take to get to a storm. I mean I left from AZ once to get NE for an event 2 days out. If I followed that advice of drives not longer than 2-3 hours I don't think I would have ever seen a tornado or even very many severe storms.

[Jay McCoy]

Maybe a little O/T, but still is relavent to chasing "safety":

I have a problem when I read about people making "huge drives" to get to a storm area. A person may feel they can drive and drive for hours on end, but it's a fact that just 2 hours of continuous driving is enough to cause (possibly unnoticed) fatigue, which leads to a higher risk of accidents. That's why we prefer having 3 drivers - we can rotate as often as required.

Some of the tour companies get their drivers to cover almost 1000 miles in a day - that's too much IMO, especially as they're conveying people around.

And to think there are thousands of semis on the road where the drivers have driven for like 6-8 hrs or more today.. Will be a bloodbath tonight!

I can do 500 mile chases without breaking a sweat constantly. On the road by noon and home around 10-midnight is common. ofcourse you do alot of stopping and watching but I have never had an issue of falling asleep while driving. Good music, good caffiene, and good company solves all that.

[Doug Lee]

Driving 2 - 3 hours without a break can be fatguing, depending on your age and physical condition. To make sure you take enough breaks, drink a quart of water just before you get behind the wheel. ;) :rolleyes: :p

[Brandon Goforth]

I think the point Paul was trying to make is simply that if you're driving a very long distance for a chase, then rotate drivers periodically *IF* possible. I don't disagree with that because it's true that some amount of fatigue will inevitably occur during long hours behind the wheel, which in turn will no doubt lead to a decrease in awareness and reaction time. Rotating drivers and/or taking small breaks will help keep the risk of an accident down, even if it's only by a very small amount. That being the case, as long as I'm not literally about to pass out behind the wheel I will keep on truckin'. :) But to each his own as long as you put safety first.

[Paul Knightley]

The kind of arrogant "iron man" comments just go to prove that people "think" it's safe. I've driven large distances too, without incident - but that doesn't mean you won't crash at some point.

I suppose tiredness could explain some of the awful practices we've witnessed amongst both chasers and semi drivers when we've been over in the USA!

[Paul Knightley]

Have a read of this page, if you're interested:

http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/papers/fatigue.html

"International evidence has accumulated which suggests that fatigue may be a significant contributor to truck crashes. Transportation Research and Marketing (1985) concluded that fatigue was a primary cause in 41% of heavy truck crashes in the western United States and a probable cause in a further 18%. Jones and Stein (1987) conducted a study in Washington State which found that the crash risk for drivers of articulated vehicles who had driven for more than eight hours was double that of drivers who had driven for less than eight hours. To put this in perspective, this means that someone who has driven for more than eight hours is operating at a similar risk to someone who has a BAC of .05."

[Mickey Ptak]

I suppose tiredness could explain some of the awful practices we've witnessed amongst both chasers and semi drivers when we've been over in the USA!


So I assume everyone over in your part of the world drives safely?

Mick

[Jim Hunt]

So I asume everyone over in your part of the world drives safely?

Mick

But in the UK, they don't have long streches of hiway to drive. If you drive anywhere for more than 6 to 8 hours, you end up in the water. ;)

[Mickey Ptak]

But in the UK, they don't have long streches of hiway to drive. If you drive anywhere for more than 6 to 8 hours, you end up in the water. ;)

So what you are saying is that once the person gets to ocean the highway does not go back to the original starting point in which the driver started? Also, it’s less likely for a tired / fatigued UK driver to have an accident based on the fact that the roads in the UK are much shorter than the roads in the USA? Hmmm interesting…. ;) :D :confused:

Mick

[Helen Rossington]

In the UK we have laws for truck drivers so that they have to log the hours they drive and therefore have a maximum length of time a day they can drive for. In the UK we don't have the long lengths of highway with nothing on them and also dead straight like many are in the US.

Most cars in the UK are also manual so you tend to have to be doing something most of the time rather than just sitting with cruise control on and there are lots more other cars to avoid!

We also have laws that cover people being distracted by driving using a mobile phone. There have been many well publicised accidents recently caused by people on the phone or sending text messages. You only get a fine and points on your license though and lots of people are willing to take the risk.

There have also been crashes caused by people falling asleep and then crashing into other cars or also crashing on to train lines. One a few years ago involved a car driver falling asleep crashing off the road down onto a high speed passenger train line (the closing speed was 142mph) 10 train passengers were killed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1703935.stm


However I would say that most people are killed in the UK by people speeding in urban areas...which is most of the UK ...or driving having taken alcohol or drugs.

I don't think that Paul meant that you can only drive for 2 hours a day! He meant that you shouldn't drive for long periods of time without taking short breaks. Think when you are chasing a storm and racking up the miles you are stopping occasionally to take photos and plan your next move...you not just blindly staring ahead for hours and hours.

[Billy Griffin]

Is this the ETERNAL thread?

[Mickey Ptak]

Is this the ETERNAL thread?

Yes... On top of that it's a waste of bandwidth. I figured I would just poke some fun and waste some more bandwidth also.

Mick

[Paul Knightley]

I suppose people don't have to read it if they don't want to!

Anyway, I'll conclude my input by saying that Helen has pretty much summed up the position in the UK - we have plenty of bad drivers over here too! It's just that some people have begun to take on board that there are some things which increase your chances of being in a crash, and tiredness is but one of them!

I didn't intend to make it seem like I was picking on purely US drivers, or chasers, but on a board such as this, that seems to be the main audience!

[John Diel]

Didn't you that UK Drivers all drive on the wrong side of the road? That makes them work harder, hence the increased Driver's Fatigue. :D

Sorry Mates, I just HAD to take the cheap shot! :)

[David Drummond]

I often drive 12-14 hour days. To add to my risk I also have multiple distractions like a laptop I can browse ST with while going down the highway as well as instant message with other chasers, and a cell phone that is constantly ringing, not to mention the two scanners and ham radio, oh and the storms too, let's not forget the storms. OH, and those god aweful amber lights that according to some are sure to endanger everyone within 6 miles of me.

When I think about it, it's amazing I haven't had an real accident in 26 years! Wonder what the odds are?

[David Schuttler]

I often drive 12-14 hour days. To add to my risk I also have multiple distractions like a laptop I can browse ST with while going down the highway as well as instant message with other chasers, and a cell phone that is constantly ringing, not to mention the two scanners and ham radio, oh and the storms too, let's not forget the storms. OH, and those god aweful amber lights that according to some are sure to endanger everyone within 6 miles of me.

When I think about it, it's amazing I haven't had an real accident in 26 years! Wonder what the odds are?

But can you do it going backwards :D

[Jim Hunt]

With WI being a big day, people are there by the car loads. Just on the Spotter Network, I count 35 to 40 chasers/spotters in the KARX radar area. I bet it is a busy day up there.

[Stan Rose]

Geez, whatta fun thread. Im just overjoyed that i got to witness one of the top convergences of the season, since ive had so few ops to chase this year. I feel special. :D

[Dick McGowan]

I "heard" that the Hill City, KS sheriff contacted legislators and are going to push a bill to outlaw storm chasing in Kansas. A chasing friend told me he saw it on the KC news.... I'm having trouble finding anything online about it.

Looks like our hobby is finished. LOL. Evidently he has read this thread...we may have to go incognito in the future.

[Rob Herman]

Tornadoes are about the only tourist attraction we have.

Disclaimer: This is sarcasm!!!

[David Drummond]

I "heard" that the Hill City, KS sheriff contacted legislators and are going to push a bill to outlaw storm chasing in Kansas. A chasing friend told me he saw it on the KC news.... I'm having trouble finding anything online about it.

Looks like our hobby is finished. LOL. Evidently he has read this thread...we may have to go incognito in the future.

Population 2946. Now there is a ton of political clout.

Crime in 2004:

Murders: 0
Rapes: 0
Robberies: 0
Assaults: 0
Burglaries: 5
Thefts: 15
Auto thefts: 0
Seems like someone there is bored with their job if that is true.

[Mikey Gribble]

Make a law against storm chasing? That's laughable.

[Van DeWald]

Make a law against storm chasing? That's laughable.

And in no way enforcable. There would be no way to prove that you were there soley for the purpose of storm chasing.

I envision an exchange something like this...

"Who me? No, I'm not storm chasing officer, that's against the law. I just happen to be out for an evening drive out in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from home for no reason. Storm chasing? No way. I hate storms. Laptop? Oh, yes, I always travel with a laptop computer in my car. You see, I don't have an in-dash GPS. Ham radios? Well, it's not against the law to have a ham radio license, is it? Thanks for your concern, see ya."

[David Drummond]

Even IF someone were to ever get something like that anywhere close to reality, the ham radio groups, perhaps even the ARRL would lobby (and probably succeed) in getting licensed radio amatuers exempted from it because of SKYWARN.

Something like that going on in Texas right now regarding the restriction of operating wireless devices while driving a motor vehicle, and were successful at getting ham's exempt from that as well.

Or it could be like the current Texas law that restricts a display (laptop computer, DVD screen, etc) from being viewable from the drivers position. One exemption is news gathering vehicles. Which would make all of us with TV station logos on our vehicles exempt from it.

In the end, the issue would be too complicated and largely unenforcable, and no money in it for the administrating bodies....so it will never happen.

[David Wolfson]

You never want to underestimate the ability of politically inclined lawyer-legislators to make life more miserable for people. I was going to post a possible example here of an anti-chaser statute, but don't want to give anyone who might be reading this any "good" ideas. :mad:

[Amos Magliocco]

A reliable source with contacts among Oklahoma emergency managers said last week that those folks, too, are discussing ways to regulate or curtail stormchasing. I have no idea how serious they are or if they'll still be worked up about it in a few weeks.

I don't know what the definition of enforceability is, but I think it's the wrong way to imagine the relationship between laws and law enforcement. First, no bill ever failed to become law because it could not either completely eliminate an activity or behavior (marijuana, seat belts, ambulance chasing) or because it could not be universally enforced everywhere all the time. The way to think about a law like this would be as a "tool" for LE to use during days of what they might consider "dangerous" chaser convergences, meaning that, like seat belts, it would be selectively enforced or perhaps not enforced at all on other days. No law includes a provision to hold LE in contempt of court if they don't vigorously enforce every law every minute.

As far as proving that an individual was chasing or not, that seems like a no-brainer. How hard would it be to prove to a jury of 12 men and women that someone was chasing storms after their vehicle was stopped, their equipment photographed (could you close all those apps in time? would it matter if they were still on your hard drive? lol), their location (versus their residence) noted, their website and blog records entered into evidence, their chasing history revealed, their friends and family called to testify under oath? Of course that's an extreme and absurd example, but my point is that, in a court of law, it would be easy to convince 12 men and women that someone was engaged in storm chasing. There's far more physical and circumstantial evidence available for such a case than in many criminal trials. There is no requirement to prove intentionality!

Many chasers have decals on their vehicle that read: "STORM CHASER!" LOL. That might be pretty compelling in a court room.

The arguments I read against this is that you could just tell the cop you weren't chasing. That never seems to work on COPS: "I swear, o-c-iffer, that's not my weed. It's my mom's!" :eek:

No DA in a rural county wants to spend all that money bringing chasers to trial. But if they had to run a "test case" or two, it would be no challenge. What chasers on this site would spend the money to run the case up the ladder to a state supreme court? Wouldn't it be easier to pay the ticket from your computer at home than spend months in Lincoln or wherever while paying thousands to an attorney?

Finally, state legislators could care less about all this. Enforceability doesn't matter to them; they're giving LE a tool. And since most of them are lawyers, they'd know that proving someone is chasing would take less than a day. What a legislator wants is something for his or her next campaign flyer, like: "SPONSORED LEGISLATION TO CURB DANGEROUS STORM CHASING IN KANSAS." Nobody except chasers cares about the definition of "dangerous" or all the good and positive things we do. And like David mentioned, we have zero political clout since there's less than 1000 of us scatted all around the country and the world. We present no danger to any single lawmaker in any single state. We're the easiest targets in the world.

I'm not writing this because I'm in favor of such a law. If I were a betting man, I'd say it won't happen. My guess would be the story will die down until next May. I doubt there's much juice behind the anti-chaser sentiment. But I could be wrong.

All I'm arguing here is that an anti-chasing law is possible.

[fplowman]

Im wondering why it is that they really care? I mean really? Why do they care?

"someone was in a car driving slow on the gravel while we were trying to get through".

Crazy, crazy world. Being 39 yrs old something going on in my life is always being legislated or outlawed it seems.

[Mikey Gribble]

There is no way for them to make "storm chasing" illegal. That is absurd. All they can do is apply existing traffic laws to crack down on chasers.
All these sheriffs and small town cops that are rallying these sort of ridiculous movements can bite me. Who do they think is relaying accurate weather reports to the media and NWS? It ain't them. In large part chasers perform a public service when they are on a dangerous storms. These people should be saying thankyou instead of trying to punish us all because of a few inconveniences. I fail to understand what they were prevented from doing because of storm chasers blocking the roads. Was there a structure hit in Hill City? Nope. So what, was he slowed down a little when he was trying to chase the storm. Big deal. We probably did the NWS a favor by slowing down the cop because it just minimizes the number of false reports he can make. I'm just kidding BTW.
Seriously though, this whole stop storm chasers garbage will go nowhere. You can't make it illegal. No way, no how. All they can do is apply existing laws. Even if there ever was some sort of law passed I guarantee you there would be some public outcry. The media has chasers and the media would carry that story for sure since it contradicts there interests.
I honestly believe that anyone who thinks chasers do more harm than good for the public is a$$ backwards wrong.

[Earl Faubion]

In my opinion this is much ado about nothing. Our right to travel for any reason we choose is well-established and it’s highly unlikely any attempt to thwart that would pass a constitutionality test. We can be governed on how we drive and what we drive but (short of a declaration of martial law), not on why we drive. There are already adequate laws on the books that can be used to deal with the described problems.

[Dan Robinson]

Stepping back from this issue for a while makes me realize that nobody really cares. Even if a big tragedy happens - like a tour group getting mowed down by a speeding car - it will be on the news for a week maybe, then everyone will forget about it just like everything else that happens in the world.

Nobody outside the chaser community cares about this issue. My bet is that the LE in the affected counties see the heavy traffic and few rougue maniacs, and get perturbed for a couple of days. Enough time to get a few quotes into the local paper. Then, they go on with their jobs and their lives and don't think about chasers until the next spring. I just can't see them seething about this for months, plotting to get laws enacted. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Doug Lee]

If some legislator where to introduce a bill outlawing chasing in his or her state, it could easily get shot down by several arguments.

First, is this law necessary? Do chasers pose that big a threat to the general public? How much real harm have chasers done? Why criminalize a group of mostly hobbyists, who sometimes do perform a valuable public service?

Second, what about constitutional issues? The First Amendment guarantees the right to assemble peacefully, and that implies freedom of movement. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments say that the government cannot deprive people of their liberties without due process of law.

Third, what about jurisdictional issues? What about the researchers? Their job is to gather data about real-time weather events for later analysis, and some work for government agencies. What about the chasers that are spotters for their home jurisdictions? What about someone who is only a spotter, but their EOC sends them to watch a storm in the next county? What about the NWS mets that chase? What about the chasers that are LE and FF personnel?

Fourth, what about the law of unintended consequences? An antichasing law could cost tourism dollars, not just from the chasers staying away, but from the bad reputation the state could get if a regular tourist was mistakenly arrested under the antichasing law. Then there's the cost of lawsuits. I know that many chasers couldn't afford to fight the charges. I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, but they live to challenge laws like this.

Actually, I think the bad chaser / chaser convergence thing is an annoyance that we'll have to live with. Many of the those who engage in unsafe behavior are not really storm lovers, they are thrill seekers. When storm chasing is no longer a thrill, they'll move on to other things. The bad thing is that new thrill seekers are likely to replace them as long as the media glamorize their bad behavior. The other chasers that engage in unsafe behavior will probably mellow with age, especially if they have a close call or two. I'm not wishing bad things to happen to people, I'm just saying that if you make a habit of standing too close to the stove, you'll learn when you get burned a couple of times.

[David Wolfson]

Haukay, here's the thing as I see it. The laws, if they're made, won't be about stormchasing. They'll be about non-emergency stopping a vehicle on the road shoulder or "obstructing" private property. That would be quite broad and hassle all sorts of people, but it's already the case on interstates and near the Bush ranch, for example.

Put in language that limits the effect to "counties under a NWS tornado or severe thunderstorm watch or warning" and exempt registered local storm spotters, government employees, and first responders. Yeah, it can be done.... :mad:

[Jesse Risley]

I don't think they really need to pass any new laws. Existing laws similar to what Dave posted could be enforced in full vigor. They call this practice "Zero Tolerance" enforcement in this neck of the woods and it's very effective in changing the driving behavior of the general public within a given area in a very short period of time.

Let's be honest - it's very, very hard to chase without breaking some "minor" traffic laws. Almost anyone who drives is going to violate at least a minor traffic law at some point in time (i.e. speeding less than 5 over, stopping over a stop line, CA stops, improper stopping or standing in the roadway, improper signaling by putting hands out the window, etc. etc.).

Why would new laws need to be passed when LEOs can simply crack down on chasers in the troubled areas and start writing citations for minor offenses. I doubt this would ever be publicly mentioned as an enforcement mechanism, but it's far more likely to happen than anti-storm chasing legislation. Chasers could start getting treated like some truckers, folks who own radar detectors, and the "fast and the furious crowd" are treated in certain areas - more likely to walk away with a hard ticket as opposed to a warning. This will suck, but it will get the point across and start hitting people in the wallets and likely steer some chasers away from said counties or jurisdictions once the word gets out.

Before this starts another anti-cop rant, consider the facts. LEOs would be operating within the confines of their authority and sworn duty to uphold the law, and chasers would have little recourse since they would be in violation of the law. We're just talking about laws that are rarely enforced nationwide (probably less than 0.01% of tickets written annually in the U.S. for these minor infractions) and generally result in a verbal warning, IF LEOs even bother to stop people for these violations on a normal basis.

[John Olexa]

I'll just stick with lightning. 2 am in the morning, I'm all alone ;)

[David Mikulec]

Like Jesse says, all that the counties and or states need to do is enforce existing laws - and I have to agree. With many localities already short of staff, the last thing law enforcement probably needs are even more laws to enforce. Heck, a zero tolerance policy on speed limits would make many think twice before venturing out and would 'bankrupt" many more after just one or two chase excursions. And it would put some much needed funds into local treasuries.

[Dick McGowan]

I can't imagine anything this sheriff does would pass. Perhaps he didn't know that MANY storm chasers were in contact with the NWS in Dodge City the night of Greensburg? (Mike U is a storm chaser too!).

If it did pass...the first deadly tornado that hit a Kansas town, I would personally hold this sheriff responsible for their deaths, as well as KS legislators.

The media would eat up a story like this, and hang whoever is responsible, out to dry.

[Zack Borst]

A lot of people seem to want to blame everyone but the storm chasing community. I would say that if they are even considering passing a law to prevent storm chasing that means there is probably a significant problem. There should be some way of self regulating, I am not sure how but something needs to be done. The other option is to simply point out the obvious situations where storm chasers made a huge difference and had the chasers not reported the storm perhaps there would have been a loss of life or something along those lines. I think you probably could compare bad chasers to the the idiots who impersonate all the other emergency services. I would bet money the people who are causing the problems are part of those whacker groups that have lightbars, a million antennas, and no real reason for existence other than to get in the way and be a danger to themselves and those around them. I am sure most of you can picture the types I am referring to.

[Jason Boggs]

SIMPLY PUT: It would be absolutely impossible to make storm chasing illegal, so why is everybody so worried about it?

[Doug Lee]

Jesse and Zack both have valid points. As far as self-regualtion goes, that will be hard to do without legal authority. If you see any unsafe, illegal activtiy, report it and be willing to testify, sign afffadavits, etc. Best of all would be to watch your own behavior, and encourage others to do the same.
As some have said, try to work with local authorities instead of against them. Let them see your radar and tell them about weather they should be concerned about. If you're a ham, emergency management volunteer, Red Cross volunteer, etc., tell them how you can help deal with the aftermath of storm, if needed. Assure them that you will not interefere with their operations. A little PR goes a long way.

As I said earlier, this is a problem that won't go away completely. The best we can do is to keep it from growing and affecting everyone. Not being part of the problem is a start.

[Mike Hollingshead]

From the ST Archive......1987:

The Texas Department of Public Safety has issued a stern warning to storm chasers in Texas: "You better follow the rules of the road". In a recent meeting, storm chasers were mentioned as a problem and a "crackdown" will be in order. Some of the state troopers have Mustangs which are faster than the older cars.

[David Mikulec]

Thanks for the reminder Mike. It's quite obvious that chaser safety and behavior on the road has been an issue for some time and even predates the "Twister" phenomena. Certainly can't blame the movie in this case. Or amateur radio antennas. And though I don't know the details in the case you've mentioned here, it must have been an urgent matter for TX authorities to make an issue of it.

[Stan Rose]

Jesse is absolutely correct, the real headache will be zero tolerance enforcement. And, something we ought to consider is the fact that warnings and weather information are only going to get more advanced and specific with each coming year. I can already go online and see where 1000 spotters are in real time. I can forsee a time when law enforcement will have enough lead time to simply close off an entire road, before the storm hits. That would put a real damper on this hobby!

[Zack Borst]

I think there is tension building between the hobbyists, the media/photo/filmers, and the growing public safety chasers (not necessarily skywarn). I believe local, state, and federal agencies are going to have their own "professional" chasers. I quote that because I don't mean chasers don't act professional but they will be employed by a government agency. It is a logical step with the increase in the need and awareness for such a move. Katrina and other natural disasters are putting a lot more pressure to develop such programs. Who knows, it could go by the wayside once everything quiets down again.

[rdale]

How is Katrina making a push for government sponsored chasers? I don't think I understand the connection - did Katrina cause massive chaser convergence? I don't believe you can say a hurricane requires spotters...

[Zack Borst]

No, I am just using one of the larger weather events, that was probably the worst example I could have picked. I am not saying government is going to be sponsoring anyone. I am saying FEMA, state, and local agencies are beginning to see how having their own trained people will cut the middle man out of the mix. Right now it goes, spotter, NOAA, then the agency has to find out how to get that information although emergency management usually has at least limited access it is still not efficient. It makes a lot of sense logically. If you can get direct information from someone who is on the agency you don't have to worry about the reliability of the information and ensures someone is out there. Every major event weather its a hurricane, tornado outbreak, or snowstorm it make a lot of sense to have trained agency personnel to be able to be available. We have had multiple situations on the fire department I am on where we had a HAZMAT spill and it was completely clear out but a trained and equipped spotter would have been worth their weight in gold so we could have access to local realtime weather info. We basically relied on someone staying at the computer and checking the noaa website. The data is collected from a location 25 miles away! Anyways, I think i kind of hijacked the thread so I am not going to get more into this, maybe I will start a new thread.

[Wayne Hlinicky]

Here in Oklahoma our lawmakers tried a couple of years ago to outlaw storm chasing. It failed in the House big time. Then they (lawmakers) tried to make everyone who chased storms become certified according to our lawmakers way of thinking. RUMOR has it Jason Murphey may make an attempt to get some sort of legislation on this issue. Like every bill he has introduced in the House they all failed.

Like one of the other people on here wrote, "Everything I like to do, someone has to get legislation against it", or words to that effect. He is right, everytime some hard working person comes up with a new idea, or a way of enjoying themselves here comes the government with their hand out TAKING a chunk of your pie. I can go on and on but I am going to run for the Oklahoma State House of Representatives next year. I will do everything I can to stop any form of legislation against stormchasers here in Oklahoma Now that is in writing.
One way to stop all this legislation and other under the table dealings from our elected officials is to vote them out of office next elections. Let them know if they are not interested in what is right for the people then your out next election. It works. I did it here where I live. I told the person that if he did not do what we the people wanted he was out and I waged a campaign against him with proof and he is out. But you do have the power to change the government Damit just vote them out.

[Darin Brunin]

Here is an interesting article that I came across. I am not sure if other states have laws like this, but I could see it happening to storm chasers who leave their video cameras running if they ever get pulled over while chasing. I'll also add that it's pretty ridiculous that this guy was arrested for filming the police officer in a public place while being pulled over.

http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=22471 (http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnews/2007/06/brian_d_kelly_didnt_think.html)

I just saw that Skip started a thread for it already right after I posted.....
http://stormtrack.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12890

[Shane Adams]

I just replied to this in the Bar & Grill section, but it can't be said enough: LAME.

Try and prove in a court of law I didn't just have it going before you pulled me over. I've come to realize there are two kinds of cops: Those that like chasers and those that don't, and the latter group have their heads made up before they ever encounter a chaser. All we can do is hope when you have a run-in, it's a friendly one. I've had one encounter with a not-so-friendly one and it was all I could do to bite my tongue....I fear my mouth and my severe allergic reaction to bull***** will one day get me in trouble with an abusive cop. Oh well.

[Joey Ketcham]

Well shortly after that story came out in the Hays Daily News, I wrote a letter to the guy who wrote the article basically saying that we're not a bad group of people and that we do alot of good. I guess they posted it as a Letter to the Editor and today I got this email regarding it:

name: Jim Keith
email: censored
Comment: ATN; JOEY KETCHAM
REFERENCE YOUR LETTER TO THE HAYS DAILY NEWS 060402. I\'VE BEEN A DISPATCHER FOR 30 YEARS AT THE GRAHAM CO SHERIFF\'S OFFICE IN HILL CITY,KS. AFTER READING YOUR LETTER I HAVE NEVER READ SUCH A BUNCH OF S--T. ALL YOU THRILL SEEKERS DO IS HINDER THE WORK OF OUR TRAINED SPOTTERS, TIE UP OUR 911 LINES WITH YOUR CALLS FOR HELP AND FALSE REPORTS. TAKE THE NIGHT OF 052207 WE HAD OVER 100 STORM CHASERS BETWEEN WAKEENEY AND HILL CITY ON US 283 BLOCKING ROADS AND MAKING IT DIFFICULT TO GET BY THEM, WE HAD TROOPERS, AND SHERIFF OFFICERS TRYING TO DIRECT TRAFFIC TO AVOID ACCIDENTS INSTEAD OF STORM SPOTTING. AFTER THE STORM WENT BY US THERE WERE 5 CHASERS STUCK ON COUNTY ROADS CALLING 911 FOR HELP TO GET OUT. THE WRECKERS WERE CHARGING $100 CASH TO PULL THESE THRILL SEEKES OUT.
STAY HOME AND WATCH WHERE ITS SAFE AND YOUR NOT
A PROBLEM. WE DON\'T NEED YOUIRV HELP!
Submit: Submit

[Joey Ketcham]

The only thing in Jim's email that I do agree with is his concerns about storm chasers who get stuck and as a result they tie up 911 trying to get help.

[Shane Adams]

The more ignorance I see like that letter, the more I wonder just how many out there share that sentiment. It's actually shocking to read that, to see all of us being lumped into a huge group. God I'd kill for the opportunity to be at a spotter class when someone like this guy pipes up. It would be an enlightening evening.

I would tear into him about chasers screwing up trained spotters but it's not fair. Spotters are only guilty of inexperience, which we all were once. It wouldn't be worth risking offending spotters to argue with this guy about how wrong that statement is.

FWIW, I didn't see a single cop or wrecker anywhere on backroads on May 22....and I have no idea what the huge emergency was we were all hampering. Just a perty lil tornado in the middle of nowhere, well-covered. I gotta start letting this stuff go....there's just some people in the world you can't fix.

[fplowman]

Jesse is absolutely correct, the real headache will be zero tolerance enforcement. And, something we ought to consider is the fact that warnings and weather information are only going to get more advanced and specific with each coming year. I can already go online and see where 1000 spotters are in real time. I can forsee a time when law enforcement will have enough lead time to simply close off an entire road, before the storm hits. That would put a real damper on this hobby!

This is already happening.. They were closing roads as the storm was moving through to keep us out.. I seen this north of Great Bend on May 5th.

[John Wetter]

WE HAD OVER 100 STORM CHASERS BETWEEN WAKEENEY AND HILL CITY ON US 283 BLOCKING ROADS AND MAKING IT DIFFICULT TO GET BY THEM, WE HAD TROOPERS, AND SHERIFF OFFICERS TRYING TO DIRECT TRAFFIC TO AVOID ACCIDENTS INSTEAD OF STORM SPOTTING. AFTER THE STORM WENT BY US THERE WERE 5 CHASERS STUCK ON COUNTY ROADS CALLING 911 FOR HELP TO GET OUT. THE WRECKERS WERE CHARGING $100 CASH TO PULL THESE THRILL SEEKES OUT.


Well, I also agree that if people are stuck, it's their problem. If you're stuck, why call 911? Call AAA, or 411 for a local towing co. And if they want $100 cash to do it, well, that's your fault for driving a non-4X4 on a wet clay road or driving poorly.

As far as 283 goes... I thought people were quite well behaved. I was sitting BS'ing with one of this dispatchers cops and he was having a good old time with everyone. He was joking that he wished he could have set up a quick toll road and make some extra money. We were chatting about what the storm was doing and he was real interested in what I had to say. It started hailing and he went on his way...

I also know that there is one county up here where the Skywarn people are all uptight about chasers and one person's opinion has spread some. I really think it's just that they don't 'get it' and there really is nothing we can do for that.

-John

-John

[Joey Ketcham]

The more ignorance I see like that letter, the more I wonder just how many out there share that sentiment. It's actually shocking to read that, to see all of us being lumped into a huge group. God I'd kill for the opportunity to be at a spotter class when someone like this guy pipes up. It would be an enlightening evening.


My guess is there is probably more people that shares the same feeling as him than we realize. I cannot imagine how anyone could actually say that we don't contribute or help in any way, shape, or form when in just the last 3 weeks my chase partner and I have had a direct impact on the warning decision process at our local NWS.

I have nothing against storm spotters, there are a lot of good spotters out there... but for the most part these spotters are made up of police, fire, and ems and have very very minimal knowledge about what they're looking at.. and I don't know about where you guys live, but it's scary when I hear some of the crap being reported in my neck of the woods. And I'm sorry... where were these highly trained storm spotters at a few weeks ago at 4:30 in the morning when severe storms passed through my neck of the woods? That's funny, storm spotters are so much better than us but yet there were none to be heard that night... yet me, the non-contributing storm chaser, was out waiting for the storms to pass.

Tim Samaras... do I need to say more? A storm chaser who made history by deploying a probe into a tornado, sometime scienstists have tried for years to do and couldn't.

[David Drummond]

Does anyone else besides me think there may be some "turf defending" going on there with that county?

Nice tornado comes through, something some of those spotter probably waited years to see, and all of a sudden everyone and their dog shows up and "ruins" their big chance to use all that training they got on a real tornado.

This would not be the first time I have seen some sort of "turf defense" going on with a spotter group when it came to storm chasers.

[Joey Ketcham]

Does anyone else besides me think there may be some "turf defending" going on there with that county?

Nice tornado comes through, something some of those spotter probably waited years to see, and all of a sudden everyone and their dog shows up and "ruins" their big chance to use all that training they got on a real tornado.

This would not be the first time I have seen some sort of "turf defense" going on with a spotter group when it came to storm chasers.

I kind of see that, but on the other hand I think that the group of people that seems to have any beef with us more than any other group of people is emergency managers and law enforcement as generally it is them that goes to the newspaper and whines about us.

I'm not sure how it is down in Texas or anywhere else, but personally I get along great with storm spotters in my area and not once heard any complaints from them about storm chasers.

At least here in my neck of the woods I think the people that make up the spotter network generally are just people who are associated with civil defense (police, fire, ems) and don't really have any interest in the science at all, in fact most probably don't care whether they ever see a tornado or not. Most just do it as part of their public service for the community they serve.

As most remember, May 4th 2003 was a huge day for southeast Kansas and I'm sure a lot of you were chasing southeast Kansas that day. The F4 tornado that hit Franklin, KS is within my county and I live just a few miles from there... even the days after that not once did I ever see or hear any complaints about storm chasers, and I know I saw just as many chasers on that day as I have on other big chase days this year. There was no editorials in the paper about how evil storm chasers are, there were no letters to the editor from the Crawford County Sherrif or the Emergency Manager about how storm chasers got in the way... nothing. So I don't know if it's just a central and western Kansas deal for them to whine about us or not, but they seem to whine about storm chasers more than anyone else. Seems like everything there is severe weather you have a sheriff in some county out that way that writes to the paper crying about how horrible we are.

[Shane Adams]

This would not be the first time I have seen some sort of "turf defense" going on with a spotter group when it came to storm chasers.

I can see that being the case, but again, that is just ridiculous. Are these guys gangbangers now? Makes me glad I'm more or less incognito with my chase vehicle's appearance. As far as a bunch of us showing up and ruining "their" tornado, now they know how it feels to be scanning for severe weather info and all you get is two guys BSing about meaningless crap.

One thing is obvious though: the problem of chasers having negative run-ins with law enforcement/spotters/ems whatever is largely based on the character of the officer/spotter. Seems many stories/experiences I've read about this year involved situations where the chaser was overly-cordial and the cop or whoever was just hell-bent against chasers from the getgo. It's not that chasers are horrible people, it's that many non-chasing people have it in for us, for whatever reason. The cool thing is, you only have to tolerate it from cops.....spotters you can tell to kiss your a$$.

I remember a time was you had to actually do something wrong to be loathed.

[David Drummond]

I can see that being the case, but again, that is just ridiculous. Are these guys gangbangers now?

No not gangbangers Shane. LOL It's something I have seen in the ham radio community numbers of times. It happens sometimes between competing ham clubs in the same area. I know of at least two "anti-chaser" spotter groups I can think of just off the top of my head. They want nothing to do with chasers, chasers are not allowed on their closed SKYWARN net (no one is that isn't part of their group) and they don't want to associate with chasers in any form or fashion.

This is the extreme rather than the norm thankfully. But the "turf defending" I am talking about is more of a thing where I think they might have saw chasers as having "stepped on their toes" when some significant severe weather came through that day.


Also, someone mentioned that often in some areas those very spotters are actually the police, fire, ems people. This is true. Often the extent of their severe weather training is a slide show talk for an hour or two each season and then the few storms that pass by that they get to observe. A little story... I organized a little spotter training for a certain, rather large, volunteer fire department. Got the meeting set up and got the NWS guys out to do the training. Most everyone in the department showed up, and as the guys started their talk, the entire group did nothing more during the whole talk but a lot of cutting up and grab assing, so much so they had a hard time even completing the talk. After the guys left the fire chief gave them all a good ass chewing that was duly deserved.

So what do you think happened the next time severe weather came out? Yep, they were all out spotting with their newly aquired knowledge (from that talk they paid oh so close attention to) and they were the experts and no one was going to tell them any different. I ofter wander how many times that plays out across the plains. Obviously, some training programs are very good and very intensive. Others may barely cover the basics, but either way, in my experience, for many of the fire/leo/ems folks, once they have been to some sort of a training class, they consider themselves an expert in that thing, and no one is going to tell them any different. Just something to think about when you encounter them. Not saying they are bad, or aren't well meaning, just something to keep in the back of your mind.

[Mikey Gribble]

I couldn't care less whether or not some spotter dislikes me because I'm a chaser. If there are any spotters that dislike chasers in their area, maybe it is because they are threatened by them. I could see that. They go park at some intersection for nothing time and time again, and then when they finally get some good weather to report on a butt load of chasers show up and steal their thunder by reporting as well. It's like being a volunteer fire fighter in a small town. You wait years for a chance to use your skills, finally somebodys' house catches on fire and while you are in route the a$$hole next door puts it out with a garden hose.

[rdale]

It's not like being a volunteer firefighter at all. Volunteer or paid - the objective is to get the fire out, even if it's with the neighbors garden hose. Most spotters are there to protect lives, regardless of who gets "credit" for reporting the event.

[Mikey Gribble]

It was an analogy meant to convey the point that just because the idea behind what spotters (and volunteer fire fighters) do is supposed to be public service, there is still going to be a grudge held by some people if somebody else (especially an outsider) comes in and performs the service that you have been working at for years.
Yeah the objective is supposed to be to get the fire out, but that doesn't mean that some people aren't going to have a chip on their shoulder if they feel like somebody else stepped in and did their job. A lot of people are competitive by nature. What about multiple detectives working on a case. Yeah they all want to catch whoever they are pursuing and that is certainly the objective, but if you don't think that some of them would feel a little resentment when another detective that just got on the case caught the guy then you are kidding yourself. There is more to it than just the objective, like how the objective is accomplished. I didn't think what I was trying to say was that hard to understand.
If the objective was simply to report on storms and keep the public safe, then why would some spotter groups not like chasers in their area? If your theory were correct then they should be glad chasers were there because it is going to help them accomplish the "objective". I don't think that all people are that simple and charitable.

[rdale]

I agree - but it's a few. Just like a "few" bad chasers does n't mean we should throw them all in the same boat...

[SteveCarter]

Maybe some of you should take the SKYWARN training classes. They are very short, and this would allow you more access, and credibilty with law enforcement. I classiify myself as a storm CHASER, but have the SKYWARN decals on my car, carry my certificate, etc. Law enforcement has given me access to areas that others were turned away from, and it's came in handy. I have done radio shows about CHASING, and have given my side of things on air. Public awareness of just how valuable a chaser can be is vital, and it carrys with it, the stigma that people NEED us to be there. We HELP, not hinder....or at least that's what we SHOULD be doing. It seems like these newspaper articles, or whatever...that slam chasers, need to be "retaliated" with newspaper interviews with chasers, etc. IE...ask an editor or news staff person if they would be interested in doing an interview with YOU, and then let THAT go in the paper. I decided to do just that a year ago, and in my area, (I know..it's not a hotbed) storm chasers are embraced as people who REALLY help those in need, and try to warn of approaching dangers. By having the radio spots now, and a couple of newspaper interviews, it's also opened the door for other things. (I've been asked to fly through the eye of a hurricane this year). So, let's fight the media WITH the media.

[Joey Ketcham]

Public awareness of just how valuable a chaser can be is vital, and it carrys with it, the stigma that people NEED us to be there.

Unfortunately, those who think we contribute nothing will continue to think that way no matter what. I know of people who feel this way, their thought is that it should be left up to first responders and that between first responders and doppler radar there is no need for storm chasers and that nothing we do contributes.

[rdale]

I remember when the new WCM at a brand new NWS office said that spotters weren't needed in her CWA since the 88D algorithms were so well advanced...

[Joey Ketcham]

Unfortunately, those who think we contribute nothing will continue to think that way no matter what. I know of people who feel this way, their thought is that it should be left up to first responders and that between first responders and doppler radar there is no need for storm chasers and that nothing we do contributes.

Case in point, I sent a reply back to Jim (the guy that emailed me) and told him, in detail, how chasers contribute.. this was his reply:
JOEY
IF YOU WAN TO STORM CHASE IN EASTERN KS THATS FINE. PLEASE DON'T COME TO NW KS
THANK YOU JIM

[Jesse Risley]

There isn't much we can do to change the opinions of some of these folks on a storm chaser forum. However, our actions (as chasers) will speak louder than any words on this forum, or elsewhere for that matter.

Next time you head out, just be congnizant about how you drive (and act in general) as a chaser around the general public, LEOs, EMA, spotters, etc. A few bad apples will spoil things for the whole bushel, so just remember that irresponsible actions on the road could be detrimental to certain aspects of the hobby. I've been more cognizant of my driving habits based on these threads this spring, and I have to admit it has made me a better (and safer) chaser than I was in past years.

[Mikey Gribble]

I just read that letter from Jim. Are you fricking kidding me? I can't believe that prick would say something like that. Chasers are the ones making false reports? Give me a break. Why is it that cops get hit by tornadoes all the time and chasers never do? It's definitely not just because cops have bad luck. EMS don't have a clue when it comes to reporting on a storm accurately and they sure as hell don't know how to keep themselves safe around one. All they can do is say I see hail or I see a tornado (and half the time their "tornado" is an RFD dust plume or a gustnado).
The vast majority of the public gets their weather information from TV. Who do these guys think are doing the call ins on TV? It ain't the spotters. I and other CHASERS are the ones getting the storm information on the air for the public. Jim needs to get off his high horse and come back to reality. The guy goes to a NWS spotter training session, sees a slide show of wall clouds, and thinks he is damn expert all of a sudden. The sad thing is that the guy probably really does think he's an expert. They don't have to worry about me calling in when I'm chasing out there.

[Mike Peregrine]

How about a chaser party in NW Kansas in '08?

Could be quite a shindig -

[Dan Robinson]

I don't have a problem with the guy being upset at the people who are blocking roads and calling 911 when they slide into a ditch. Just don't direct that anger at me and everyone else who are playing by the rules.

The main fallacy that these anti-chaser folks are guilty of is lumping all of us into the same category. The fail to see that their problem is with a small minority. Five people called 911 with cars in ditches? That means there were at least 200 others who didn't. But they get the blame just as quickly as those who did.

[Shane Adams]

Don't come to NW Kansas...laughable. I gotta have this guy's email so I can tell him not to come to Oklahoma. Then again, considering his close-minded 'tool' attitude, he's probably never left the county and couldn't be happier (or prouder) about it. I wanna know what he drives, so the next time I'm up his way, I can pull over and ask him what's going on with the weather. I'll tell him I'm a chaser about a minute into the conversation.

I gotta have this guy's email, I can't stand it. I can't just sit by while ignorance of this magnitude runs amuck out there......I can at least try to make him understand. If he still resists, then I'll ask him how it feels to be a misguided a$$hole who's pride is gonna get himself or someone else killed one night.

[Damon Poole]

The real black eye to chasing and spotting, is the fact that all of us forget that we're all trying to learn the science of severe weather, and to help advance the science the best way we can. And, as someone correctly replied to this post, we also try to have fun with it, some going solely for the thrill. There's nothing wrong with that.

My point was, and is, that bashing and criticizing each other, whether you're a chaser, or a spotter, does nothing but damage the good image of both. Why don't we all work together to stop this stupid turf war mentality that always surfaces in these posts whenever some uninformed outsider makes stupid comments in an e-mail? Most of us, whether spotter or chaser, at least try, to contribute to the science, and the warning process in our own way. I think it's high time we all stop this rediculous and false superiority complex that divides chasers and spotters alike. We should be educating each other, and, the uninformed about what both groups do. The only way to stop the cops and the public from thinking chasers and spotters don't contribute anything, is to stop sniping and start cooperating, while acting professionally, safely and responsibly.

The cops shouldn't have to tell any of us to pull completely clear of the highway, or to keep from disturbing the peace in order to get the right shot. We should be doing this by ourselves. Showing a little bit of responsibility is a great way to stop the critics in their tracks, and keep the cops from trying to stop chasing altogether.

That's my .02 cents.

[Patrick Marsh]

Why is it that cops get hit by tornadoes all the time and chasers never do?
Be careful making generalizations...

I know of several threads from this year alone of chasers being "hit" by tornadoes.

[Mikey Gribble]

I don't mean for the cops getting hit by tornadoes comment to insinuate that all cops are ignorant to the workings of a storm and are a danger to themselves when spotting. I just wanted to point out the obvious statistic that cops get hit all the time. I can think of three or four incidents just over the last couple months where a cop got nailed by a tornado. Yeah there have been a couple groups of chasers that got hit this year, but the number of chasers that get hit is far below the number of emergency workers that get hit and I believe there is an obvious reason for it. Chasers on average are much more knowledgeable at all levels when it comes to storms and as a result they are able to keep themselves safe while other less knowledgeable (on average) spotters (cops) are much less likely to keep themselves safe, which is shown in the numbers of cops getting hit relative to chasers. My point in saying that was this, if chasers on average are more knowledgeable about storms, then I think it is pretty audacious of this guy to make generalizations of false reports when if anything past experience shows emergency workers are much more likely to provide inaccurate reports.
I would love to sit down and talk to this guy. I would give ten to one odds that he has never even read an Intro. to meteorology book, but he acts like he's a champ when it comes to reporting on the weather. I wonder if he can tell when a storm is going outflow dominant, or if he knows what kind of structure and storm behavior is usually a prelude to a storm going tornadic, or if he even knows any of the basics on storm scale and mesoscale meteorology. Ignorance is bliss. I'm with Shane. I would love to send that guy an email too. I have always had a problem letting things that I think are unbelieveably wrong go without arguing my side first.

[Mike Hollingshead]

I guess if I lived there, didn't find storms interesting, I'd probably feel the same exact way. If someone e-mailed me saying how they were there to help, I'd probably find that funny as well, when there are 200 others around. We're all there to "thrillseek"(I put quotes, don't go there) first and foremost. Of course we'll help, but really, no one is leaving town any distance with helping as the priority, or as their main reason for leaving. So I guess, trying to convey you are such a helper seems sort of silly when the compaint is that there are a billion of you around. Leaving and staying away would be helping in those cases.

It's just nice it doesn't really matter. Sorry Jimbo. You are stuck with us. And since when does the law have to stop more important matters to help someone out of mud, especially when they know why they were there and that they asked for it?

[Shane Adams]

It's not that we're trying to convey we're helping so much as we're not in the wrong simply by BEING THERE. You know how many times a day I see emergency vehicles? And every time there's traffic all aorund for them to weave through. What's the difference? Oh, because we're on that backroad to chase instead of because we live there, it's not ok to be there? Is it ok for that teenage chick in the VW bug to be in the way of the ambulance because she's going to buy clothes at Hot Topic instead of driving to work? You see the point I'm making.

I refuse to feel guilty for BEING THERE. I yield to emergency vehicles and go out of my way to help if the situation arises. So this Jim guy & anyone who feels the same way he does can kiss my chasing, white a$$.

[Mikey Gribble]

By this guys reasoning cops and fireman don't deserve any credit either. Yeah, we may be thrill seakers and community service definitely isn't the driving factor that makes us chase, but we still deserve credit and respect for the service we perform regardless of whether or not it is our primary source of motivation. Cops and fireman aren't doing their jobs because they want to serve the community either. They are doing it because they get paid. Is this guy going to laugh in the face of a rescue worker when they try to explain the public service they perform? I doubt he would, but that isn't any different then him laughing at chasers.
What is the big deal with a couple hundred people coming into your county anyways? Did he have to drive a little slower for 10 minutes? Boo hoo. Somebody needs to tell this guy to pull his panties up and quit whining. If I knew where he lived I would be tempted to take a dump on his porch the next time I'm out there chasing.

[Glen Romine]

I guess if I lived there, didn't find storms interesting, I'd probably feel the same exact way. If someone e-mailed me saying how they were there to help, I'd probably find that funny as well, when there are 200 others around. We're all there to "thrillseek"(I put quotes, don't go there) first and foremost. Of course we'll help, but really, no one is leaving town any distance with helping as the priority, or as their main reason for leaving. So I guess, trying to convey you are such a helper seems sort of silly when the compaint is that there are a billion of you around. Leaving and staying away would be helping in those cases.



I agree with Mike. If you are looking for the public to thank you for chasing - you aren't likely to get it. For the most part, massive chaser convergence will be a hassle for local communties. A stressful situation of having severe weather approach your community is made all the more manic when hordes of distracted drivers all pour into town. We have all seen police busy pulling over chasers for driving violations - and maybe some of you think they should be doing that instead of watching the storms since apparently all chasers (even those on their first chase?) are 'experts' at storm observation, but the police, fire and spotter networks have the advantage of effective communications and can relay hazards to the public more effectively. Certainly, having two dozen chasers call 911 to report a brief tornado in an open field for a storm with an active tornado warning is not a great service to a community. It is more often appropriate to get the # for the local weather service office and call them instead. Every chaser that wants to help should travel with the list of NWS office numbers. If you get stuck in the mud - don't call 911 for help unless you have life threatening injuries. Call 411 and get the # for a local towing company.

Absolutely there are some chasers who are generous with helping out in terms of public safety and community assistance when a tornado strikes a community - but I'm not convinced their numbers are large relative to the number of chasers (including the masses made up of locals). Among long haul diehard chasers the numbers are probably better, but the community is a conglomerate of both - and you can't expect the public to distinguish between them or to have blinders on to the jacka$$ery displayed by a few.

[Greg Stumpf]

Consider this...

This BB talks about the "great service" that storm chasers provide, and how we do more good than harm. How much service did the storm chasers on the 22 May 2007 Hill City storm actually provide?

I have it from a very reliable source that the GLD WFO only received three real-time reports of the tornado on their call log. Two reports were from the Graham County SO. The other report was from one of the GLD meteorologists who was chasing the storm (via SpotterNetwork). Only one chaser (out of 100s) bothered to relay the tornado report to the NWS. Imagine that!

I find it fascinating that loads of chasers on this BB are complaining about the persons who wrote the letters/emails condemning the actions of the chasers, yet very few are realizing there is a much deeper issue here. Apparently, the "perception" (which does not necessarily equate to "reality") of chasers is starting to grow negative with certain public officials. Rather than b&c and attack those with these perceptions, it might serve better to actively persue ways to change these perceptions from negative to positive. Most of what I've read on this thread has been completely destructive critisicm and useless whining.

I say we do our best to build advocacy for the positive things that chasers can do to help. One such idea is to heavily market the Storms of 2007 DVD fundraiser in all the counties and communities that have been affected by these storms (e.g., Hill City). The Graham and Trego County S.O's might be very impressed with this and might reconsider some of their thoughts.

Another might be to offer assistance in local spotter training. Another might be to offer assistance with spotting, by teaming up with local officials to help them identify storm features in real-time. Another might be to get the local NWS severe weather reporting numbers programmed into your cell phones and make reports. Don't always assume that the report has already been made, and remember that updates are just as important as that first report of the tornado. Another means getting your 2m amateur radio license and a radio, and working with the local spotter groups. There are countless other things that could be done to bring chasers into a more positive light. But telling folks to KYA does nothing but to further drive a wedge (pardon the pun).

[Rob Herman]

Apparently many chasers were calling 911 and making their reports that was upsetting the dispatcher. The dispatcher also claimed he was receiving false reports.

Did anybody trying to report to GLD get a busy signal? If everyone calls at once only one is going to get through. If you observe a short lived tornado, make a call and get a busy signal, how many times should you try after the tornado has lifted? Did GLD call any of the chasers showing up on the spotter network?

[Dick McGowan]

Consider this...



I have it from a very reliable source that the GLD WFO only received three real-time reports of the tornado on their call log. Two reports were from the Graham County SO. The other report was from one of the GLD meteorologists who was chasing the storm (via SpotterNetwork). Only one chaser (out of 100s) bothered to relay the tornado report to the NWS. Imagine that!




Well, I neither work for the Sheriff's office nor am I a meteorologist, but I submitted "tornado" via spotter network with "3/4 to the ground approximately 2 miles to my north." ( I wasn't sure at that time if it had touched, but figured it warranted a tornado report.) This was as it was happening.

Eventhough I "figured" there were about 200 chasers out there, we did it anyways. It's so simple to submit a report, and can let a person continue chasing...if the forecast office has any questions they will definitely give you a call. Prior to the tornado, about 20 minutes before, someone from GLD called us, and Darin told them exactly what we were seeing. This happened in Pueblo's forecast office on 4/21, as well as Wichita's on 5/5.

[Mikey Gribble]

I may not have called in to GLD NWS, but I was on air for the tv station I chase for reporting on the Hill City tornado, so I was definitely doing my part. I was reporting on the storm all night as a matter of fact and that is part of the reason why I don't appreciate some guy that lives there saying that chasers aren't doing any good.
I also participate in public speaking events and tv weather specials every spring to educate the public on what exactly chasers do. BTW you also got my video for the Storms of 2005. There are a lot of jackasses out there, but I'm not one of them and the vast majority of serious chasers I know aren't either, so of course I am going to be offended when some guy basically says chasers are worthless.
I'm not sure where this dislike for chasers came from. I really don't think the general public feels that way. Every stranger I have ever talked to about chasing is fascinated and appreciative of what we do. God bless the Discovery Channel for giving us some positive coverage because it sure doesn't seem like anyone else is recently.

BTW how in the hell would the dispatcher know if somebody made a false report and doesn't a tornado constitute an emergency? I know I have seen very well known meteorologists/chasers calling 911 to report a tornado on tv shows before. Just in case anybody is wondering, no I wasn't one of the people that called 911.

[Joey Ketcham]

Did anybody trying to report to GLD get a busy signal? If everyone calls at once only one is going to get through. If you observe a short lived tornado, make a call and get a busy signal, how many times should you try after the tornado has lifted? Did GLD call any of the chasers showing up on the spotter network?

Well, Greg did say that GLD only received 3 reports... only 2 which I believe was by phone and the other one by Spotter Network... so obviously their phone line isn't going to be busy... at least not busy enough that you can't get through at all.

I have a list of NWS phone #'s that I take with me chasing, I've always had good luck getting through to them.

[Shane Adams]

Consider this...



I find it fascinating that loads of chasers on this BB are complaining about the persons who wrote the letters/emails condemning the actions of the chasers, yet very few are realizing there is a much deeper issue here. Apparently, the "perception" (which does not necessarily equate to "reality") of chasers is starting to grow negative with certain public officials. Rather than b&c and attack those with these perceptions, it might serve better to actively persue ways to change these perceptions from negative to positive. Most of what I've read on this thread has been completely destructive critisicm and useless whining.



Hey, I've wanted to do this for years...but you can't educate someone who doesn't want to be educated. I'm sorry (not really) if my refusal to coddle and "take the high road" with this issue is perceived by some as "whinng", but I'm tired of pissing in the wind. Jerks like this guy have their heads made up and it is what it is. I say "fine, be a jerk." I in no way ever try to make myself or any other chasers "heroes", but when issues like this one are raised, of course I'm going to point out some of the positive things from chasers....it's the only ammunition I have. If that still won't turn opinions, I got nothing left in the tank.

As for the St Peter (Hill City) tornado of May 22, I haven't owned a cell phone in years and don't have a HAM, so I have no way of making real-time reports. Does this mean I have no right to be out there? Of course not. When I'm capable of making reports, I do (and they aren't always appreciated BTW). Despite that, I still report when I am able, because public awareness is far more important than my pride (yes I know, shocking statement from me....I'll give you all a few moments to collect yourselves before I continue....)

I hate bringing up the 'good things' I've done as a chaser for public service (and believe me, my list is much longer and distinguished than I'll ever advertise on here), because I don't do it for recognition, I do it because that's what you're supposed to do when the situation arises....do what you can to help/warn/whatever for someone. But to then have that thrown back in my face by other chasers? I got nothing in response to that. The spotter types run us down, I defend us, and then other chasers tear me up for that defense. So be it, LOL. As I said, there's nothing further I know to do about it, other than just ignore it.

Because when I'm out chasing, none of this crap means anything. This is filler until the next time I'm out.

[Rob Herman]

There were only a couple of short lived touchdowns that evening. Spotters would tend to call all at the same time.

I looks like to me that they don't want "public" reports (that includes us), only from their spotters (people they know and are familiar with).

As for the "false reports" some agencies will send out someone to checkout the report if they don't see what was reported in it didn't happen.

[Mikey Gribble]

I really don't care whether or not some bumpkin in NW Kansas doesn't like me. I don't care who reported on the Hill City tornado and who didn't. There are a hell of a lot more tornadoes than that each spring so what difference does that one make. I hear "storm chaser reported" all the time on the weather radio and I see "reported by storm chaser" all the time on storm reports. I also know of countless incidents where chasers have been the first ones on the scene of houses that have been hit by a tornado and chasers were the ones helping those people out of the rubble and making sure they were alright. I am sure the spotters and sheriff near Hill City do that all the time though, so who are we to deserve any credit.

[Marcus Opitz]

I say the hell with em. I guess the attitude up in that part of KS, (from what I am gathering on this thread) is that they are the professionals and we are just photographers and thrill seekers getting in the way. I guess they can take all the credit for spotting the big one 4 minuites in advance because I god forbid some "unprofessional" gives they're loved ones and community maybee 7 minuites advance.

You know how much money I have spent at many locals in the midwest this year? I have maybee spent thousands of dollars in revenue to some of these communities and other areas to enjoy what I do,and, if the time comes, hopefully help out a stranger in a land far away from here if need be. Of course I would hate to get in the way.....

Of course our country is a spectator society anyways..