inverter killing dell power supply

[Blake Michaleski]

Apparently my $20 single outlet inverter has killed two dell PA-6 ac adapters. this first one i thought was just the powersupply dies as it was much older then my spare. I plugged the spare in and it killed it almost immediately. I'm thinking the inverter either over or under applyed voltage. I'll check it with a DMM when i get one from a friend.

This inverter powered the laptop fine for about 6 months. Its just one of those inverters that plugs directly into the 12VDC outlet and has one 120VAC outlet. The whole thing is abou the size of a small point and shoot camera. It is pluggd into a dedicated 12vdc outlet wired straight from the battery and is fuse protected.

Has anyone else had this happen? Obviously a laptop ac adapter is a bad thing to lose on the road. It is the only thing I run that needs AC power so maybe I could get a DC-DC step up converter (laptop needs 20vdc).

How about a good reliable inverter in the 300w range? just so I could run a sepererate TV or charge my camera during extended tropical intercepts.

Thanks

[Brett Adair]

I have power issues with a 500W inverter. As a matter of fact, I just installed some 4GA wire and a fuse block to hook it up to. I think my issue may have been that I was using 14GA wire to hook it up with from the start. I sure hope so.....I'll let you know how things go when I finish putting the power to my inverter later on tonight.

This also caused power issues with my 2M Icom V-8000. Now that I have wired it to the battery, problem solved.

[David Drummond]

Maybe try using one of those surge protection power strips with your inverter? I have always used those mobile and so far haven't blown out any electronics from dirty power.

The inverter I have been using for a long time now is the red one they sell at Walmart. The brand name escapes me right now. I've had that for several years.

[Brett Adair]

David,

I was using a power strip and had the issue using it and without using it. I'm going to try this method and hopefully I won't have the same issues. Thanks for the suggestion though. :)

[David Drummond]

How old is your laptop? I remembered something about a Dell recall on the adapters....did a search and found this:

http://www.engadget.com/2004/10/09/dell-recalls-a-million-laptop-ac-adapters/

[Blake Michaleski]

brett, yes using that 14 GA was your problem...

I'm runnign 12 but its just powering the small inverter. if i get a larger inverter it'll get a dedicatd line as well of at least 8 guage.



David, That's a good idead with teh surge suppressor strip but it'll make for a cluttered install for sure. I like wha ti had because it was nice and neat. still a good idea.

I guess I'll be trying a little larger inverter.

[Blake Michaleski]

How old is your laptop? I remembered something about a Dell recall on the adapters....did a search and found this:

http://www.engadget.com/2004/10/09/dell-recalls-a-million-laptop-ac-adapters/

Also, i dont think this is an issue... one adapter died on me. i took it and plugged it into household AC and it still didnt work. I got my spare and it almost immediately went out when plugged into the inverter. now neither works.

As you may have seen in some other threads, my AT&T gc83 card is my only internet... I'm using it at my girlfirends house right now. I guess I'll tether my cellhone to my desktop computer when i get home and use the sim from the card jsut so I can order a new adapter since my desktop doesnt have a cardslot...:mad:

[David Drummond]

You could hide it somewhere. I have my inverter permanently mounted under the passenger seat, with direct wires from the battery. I mounted the surge protection strip (single row strip) on the back of the center console (custom built). So I have 6 protected outlets conveniently available right there for anything I need. I always use that and never plug directly in to the inverter.

The whole reason I did it that was was convenience and add a layer of protection for the electronics. So far we haven't ruined a single thing due to a power issue.

[Blake Michaleski]

yeah if i get a bigger inverter I'll do that. do you have a recommendation on a good strip?

I'm not at all afraid to run wires and drill into stuff, etc.... that's part of the fun of equipping a chase rig.

[David Drummond]

I just picked up one at walmart. As long as it has surge protection, get it from the electronics dept. The ones in hardware are just extra outlets without the protection.

[Blake Michaleski]

funny, now the backup ac adapter is working... like it shut down and stayed disabled for a while but now it works. maybe it has some sort of built in protection. i dont have the original one here with me right at the moment but i wonder if it works now too. If i plug this one into the inverter in the truck, it works for a bit and quits. Like i said, it worked fine for months. Now something is up with the inverter I guess. I'll check the inverter with a DMM when i get a chance but I supposed its just time to get a "real" one.

Thanks for the help David.

[Brett Adair]

Well, my adaptor isn't one of the recalled ones. It was manufactured in 04. I have an Inspiron 9300. Anyway, it looks like using the dedicated line has solved my problem. Powering with no issues currently and using a power strip as well.

[Gene Moore]

Apparently my $20 single outlet inverter has killed two dell PA-6 ac adapters. this first one i thought was just the powersupply dies as it was much older then my spare. I plugged the spare in and it killed it almost immediately. I'm thinking the inverter either over or under applyed voltage. I'll check it with a DMM when i get one from a friend.
How about a good reliable inverter in the 300w range? just so I could run a sepererate TV or charge my camera during extended tropical intercepts.
Thanks
Blake, I had this happen at the worst time during the thick of things in Kansas on May 5th. We decided to break off the first storm (formed near Pratt) that was producing mainly weak tornadoes and head back southwest. My 600 watt inverter (4 outlets) suddenly went out:eek: and took the electrical system down with it (computer, Delorme mapping, GPS, Barrons etc). This inverter had years of time on it, I used it to run my mobile PC unit, so I guess it was getting tired. Problem is, how do you see these things coming? Like all chase boo-boo's I try to see what I did wrong instead of just blaming it on circumstances (bad luck). What comes to mind first was I had too much important equipment all dependent on one device. Second, everything was hard wired for dependability and the wiring hidden .....never good to "trip" on the computer cables in the floor while getting out of the vehicle to shoot. Again, a well meaning concept that turned to crap since rewiring on the fly while new tornadic storms were forming was impossible. Remember most of the big tubes that day occurred in the last hour of daylight...not to mention many were somewhat rain wrapped. Early this season long time Dallas chaser Sam Barricklow said, we've become way too dependent on technology and that sure rings true in this situation. I got a truck-stop invertor the next day and spent the morning rewiring. Still, I must rethink how to keep this from happening again if the new invertor goes sour. For one, I am carrying a small invertor as a backup and doing some direct wiring to the battery along with replace fuses where I can find them fast. When you buy an invertor make sure you get a quality one, not a square wave signal unit like the ones Radio Shack sells. Also, remember the rating on the box (300 - 600 watts etc) is always the peak power for only a few minutes which is somewhat false advertising since most users run these units for many hours at a time.

Gene Moore

[Stuart Robinson]

Inverters for laptops why use them ??

I dont see the point of converting power from 13.8V to 110V only to then convert it back to 19V (dell)

For my laptops (DELL and IBM) I use the car/airplane chargers which just convert 13.8V to 19V in a single unit - I have NEVEr has any issues with power as the amps draw is so small - as a bonus the smaller convers do not overheat

Try a google search for you laptop model and car charger - failing this both kingston and Belkin do generic laptop chargers...

I reacall after hurricane Ivan that the carpet of our car got very wet and I was not too impressed that my chase parners inverter was then sitting in water!

[David Wolfson]

No expert on inverters, but I've use one in various rental cars that has a Vin, Vout, and Wout meter, and complains annoyingly with a low Vin. My observations are:

1. Most inverters don't produce a true sine wave. DC or a very poor AC will destroy power supplies, which can occur from poor design, inverter internal failure, or overloading them. Much less likely I think are spikes in the vehicle electrical system, which would damage radios and electronics installed in the vehicle -- an expensive consequence that designers certainly avoid.

2. Vehicle electrical systems (alternators, V-regulators, battery condition) vary in their effect on Vin. A temporary or intermittent low Vin condition isn't uncommon with factory electrical systems and/or old batteries.

[John Erwin]

I second the vote on Stuart's advice. Use a DC to DC converter for your laptop. I use a quality model from APC; it came with enough tips to work with most brands and included input tips for home, the car and air travel (can also work abroad with 220). Output has been rock steady and I've had zero problems with it.

[Bob Schafer]

If you have a battery inserted into your laptop but no powercord attached, the laptop will obviously be drawing its power from the battery. If you have the laptop plugged into the wall with no battery inserted... duh.

However, if the 'puter has both the battery inserted and the powercord attached, from where is the power supply (directly) drawing it's power?

There's a reason I ask. I have (almost) always chased with the battery inserted, and powercord plugged into an inverter. I do this in case the inverter suddenly fails (for whatever reason). Then I don't have to do a (improper shutdown) reboot. I know it's not good to use a laptop with both simultaneously, but I only do it that way when chasing.

I'm still using a computer I bought in January 2001. The power supply has not failed (knock on silicone), and I wonder if having the battery always inserted has helped, especially if the power supply draws from the battery in that scenario. I don't use super-high quality inverters, I plug them into the lighter socket, and when I shut off the engine the inverters complain. So I hazard a guess that having the battery in there serves to stabilize the voltage that the power supply is receiving.

[David Drummond]

There's a reason I ask. I have (almost) always chased with the battery inserted, and powercord plugged into an inverter. I do this in case the inverter suddenly fails (for whatever reason). Then I don't have to do a (improper shutdown) reboot. I know it's not good to use a laptop with both simultaneously, but I only do it that way when chasing.

I run mine on power 90% of the time with the battery in. The battery NEVER comes out in fact. Never had a problem and done this with all laptops. It's not going to hurt it. The charging circuit in the laptop knows when to stop charging the battery and just use direct power.

[John Diel]

David Wolfson touched o this point and after reading all the posts, this is a good culprit to your problems. Make sure that the inverter yuo choose is producing a Since Wave. These are generally more expensive but well worth the extra $$.

A Since Wave is the same power that you will get from your household outlests. It's a natural wave produce by the generating plant and all the step and substations there of. it's AC current.

A square wave, or Modified Sine wave may, or may not give you trouble. Most low cost inverters produce a square wave power and really only work well with electric motors and the like. You may get away with it for a while on a laptop power supply, but probably not for long.

A modified sine wave is much like a square wave with an extra step. The inverters generally work with more items, but still do not really produce the proper AC power wave most household electronics need.

Example: My inverter is a 1000/3000 watt rated inverter. Meaning, it produces 1000 watts of continuous sine wave AC power with a surge/peak rating of 3000 watts.

Say I have a microwave oven in my vehicle. the operating wattage for said oven is 500 watts. However, when you first turn it on there's a surge of 1500 watts while the initial eletronics and microwave emitter gets going. Since most microwaves weren't really intended for use in a car, they are built for household power. Household power comes to you from the power company with a Sine Wave. Say your inverter is a modified sine wave. The microwave won't work properly or it will work harder as the wave of the power amplitude isn't quite right. This can cause damage to microwave itself and eventually the appliance will fail.

This is much the same for computer power supplies. My wife's car had a 600/800 watt inverter that we used specifically to power the laptop (An older Dell BTW). I didn't do my research about the Wave process on power and the inverter was a modified sine wave. Well, it worked.... for a while. Pretty soon we started seeing some issues with the laptop and the power supply died. We replaced the power supply and for a month or so, things went great until it started happening again. This time though, the inverter blew an internal fuse. When it did that, it fried the laptop power supply and also took out the power control chips on the laptop motherboard!

That's an expensive fix!

I spoke with a friend of mine who works on ambulances. Fixes them. It turns out that the culprit was the inverter. The one we had, wasn't set up to run household electronics. He showed me a few where some local volunteer groups had replaced one in their ambulance with a cheaper version. It ended up frying all the internal equipment that needed the sine wave to work properly.

So there is a difference in inverters. Sine Wave producing models will give you the best performance and least hassles. Of course they are more expensive.

Hope that helps!

[Bob Schafer]

I run mine on power 90% of the time with the battery in. The battery NEVER comes out in fact. Never had a problem and done this with all laptops. It's not going to hurt it. The charging circuit in the laptop knows when to stop charging the battery and just use direct power.

Thanks for the info, David.

What had happened is that a year after I bought my (Hell) computer, it started telling me that the battery was discharged only about 3 minutes after I would boot with a fully charged battery (and power cord disconnected). It wasn't true; I would have to close the warning message, and the computer will continue to run on battery power alone for about another 45-55 minutes. I know that's either just the computer misreading the battery's charge or the battery telling the computer that, but either way it's annoying.

A Hell "tech support" person told me that one shouldn't have the power cord and battery installed simultaneously for long periods. I had almost always had both installed all the time prior to that. I'll believe David before a Hell "tech support" person 100% of the time.

But, I'm still wondering if having the battery installed when an inverter provides a bad source of AC will protect the power supply. I'm guessing it would if the power supply draws from the battery rather than the power adapter in that scenario. The question boils down to whether the bad incoming voltage from the inverter goes directly to the battery (only) or to the power supply itself.

[David Drummond]

Thanks for the info, David.

What had happened is that a year after I bought my (Hell) computer, it started telling me that the battery was discharged only about 3 minutes after I would boot with a fully charged battery (and power cord disconnected). It wasn't true; I would have to close the warning message, and the computer will continue to run on battery power alone for about another 45-55 minutes. I know that's either just the computer misreading the battery's charge or the battery telling the computer that, but either way it's annoying.

Mine does that if I run the battery until it runs itself out and shuts itself down. They of course I plug it in and charge it and when I turn it on, I get that message immediately after start up. My guess is that when Windows shut down it stored that info and was the first thing that it showed immediately when powering up again, becuase as you said, it went away right after that. I suspect that is one we can't blame on Microsoft.

[Bob Schafer]

Mine does that if I run the battery until it runs itself out and shuts itself down. They of course I plug it in and charge it and when I turn it on, I get that message immediately after start up. My guess is that when Windows shut down it stored that info and was the first thing that it showed immediately when powering up again, becuase as you said, it went away right after that. I suspect that is one we can't blame on Microsoft.

It hasn't just been after the battery went dead, though. I've seen that warning 500 times now, after all variety of shut down/battery charge scenarios. I get it no matter what... for the last 5 years. It's no big deal, I just have to
1) keep the computer plugged into the inverter, or
2) close the warning box and ignore the red flashing "battery low" light

The worst part of it is that I then have no idea how much battery charge I really have left, and can only guess how much time is left before the computer will shut down without warning. This is actually a bit of an issue if I'm using the inverter to charge something else, such as cellphone or rechargeable NWR batteries or whatever.

I will have a new computer before I chase again, anyway, but maybe this info will be of some use to someone else (doubt it).

[Mark Blue]

If you're not running a ton of equipment, I'd recommend Lind Electronics for your pure sine wave inverter. Here are a couple of links to the inverters I am referring to:

http://www.lindelectronics.com/cgi-bin/store/shop.cgi/!ORDERID!/other/INV1215US1P/dbx_gen_detail_product/

http://www.lindelectronics.com/cgi-bin/store/shop.cgi/!ORDERID!/other/INV1230US1P/dbx_gen_detail_product/

These guys supply inverters to the climbers on Mount Everest, so they have an awesome reputation as far as quality is concerned. I've always believed that you get what you pay for. You won't see me hanging around any blue light specials in the local discount store!!;)

[Blake Michaleski]

Those look rather nice, and not too terribly expensive. I think I'm going to go with the DC-DC converter and stay independent of AC power. I'll keep my cheap inverters for runnign a regular TV during hurricanes but that's it.

[Mark Blue]

Those look rather nice, and not too terribly expensive. I think I'm going to go with the DC-DC converter and stay independent of AC power. I'll keep my cheap inverters for runnign a regular TV during hurricanes but that's it.

I noticed that Lind actually carries DC to DC adapters for various laptop models. I'm now interested in one of those myself after the idea was brought to the table:

http://www.lindelectronics.com/cgi-bin/store/shop.cgi/!ORDERID!/Special_DC_Adapters/x/dbx_gen_Special_DC_Adapters_mfgs/

[John Erwin]

I noticed that Lind actually carries DC to DC adapters for various laptop models. I'm now interested in one of those myself after the idea was brought to the table:

Glad to see people are looking in this direction; this is a much more efficient and better way to power your laptop than using an invertor.

I would suggest however that you compare prices with models that are not specific to one brand of laptop though; the unit I have has voltage selections for different laptops as well as a selection of plugs to match too (and more can be ordered). Take a look at this model for instance:

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=UPA9&tab=models

This is similar to one I use, however mine will also work with 220 in other countries too (they don't seem to have that model anymore). You can find similar products from other vendors too.

[John Diel]

After doing some research on the DC/DC converters, I'm finding that roughly the same issues will occur depending on quality (price) of the converter. One thing you will need to make sure that converter has is some type of voltage regulation. The better the converter the better the regulation. Otherwise you risk blowing out the power regulation chips on your motherboard.

DC/DC Converters vs 12 VDC/110 VAC Interters

Tough call. It really depends what you want to do with it and how much hassle/money you're willing to put up with/part with.

The Converters remove the need for a True Sine Wave inverter, however, they are limited to a certain device. One device per converter for the particular power needs of said device.

Inverters are more versatile in that they will power anything that needs a 110 VAC power source. That means that I can have my cup of Joe in the morning from my coffee maker AND have my laptop running at the same time, plus a TV and whatever else I need as long as I don't surpass the output of the inverter.

In any event, it's really going to dwepend on your budget, what you plan to use the power for and how versatile you want it to be. If all you're doing is powering a laptop and nothing else, then I would say the converter is for you. If you plan on powering multiple devices with differing power requirements, then the inverter route is probably best.

John Diel

[John Erwin]

The Converters remove the need for a True Sine Wave inverter, however, they are limited to a certain device. One device per converter for the particular power needs of said device.

Not necessarily true. See the model I posted above.. it works with a wide range of laptops using most of the common voltages.. you select the voltage and tip for your laptop. In addition it also has a USB port to charge devices that use that type of port for power.

Inverters are more versatile in that they will power anything that needs a 110 VAC power source. That means that I can have my cup of Joe in the morning from my coffee maker AND have my laptop running at the same time, plus a TV and whatever else I need as long as I don't surpass the output of the inverter.

No argument there, but I had more problems using several inverters with my laptops than the DC/DC solution I am using now. I also have an inverter installed anyways to handle those other uses. This "universal adaptor" stays with my laptop now and I use it everywhere.. the original laptop adaptor rarely gets used anywhere but at home.

As always, its responsble to do your research and ensure you get something of quality. Cheaping out on anything will likely result in disatisfaction.

[Brandon Sullivan]

I am not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but a device called a Charge Gaurd will do the trick. I have a dell laptop and have the same problem. A charge guard regulates the enegy. You need the charge gaurd and a new special cable from your pc. I dont have one myself, but chase sometimes with a buddy which I use his, and have no problems.

At least locally, Charge Gaurds are used in all the squads for their MDC's.

[Paul Noble]

Inverters like a stable input of power. If you use the cigar lighter socket or similar while mobile then you will get fluctuations in voltage. Bring a line using cooker cable directly from the battery and hook up a fuse board in the boot. This will give you a stable and fused line and allow for expansion of the 12v line. Handy for camping.. Use 30 amp flexible cable to wire up the inverter. I have 10 metres attached to mine. When not in use it's in the boot. I can run the thing down the car in seconds to the passenger seat and when camping, I have 10m of mains capability. The main point being that it's hard wired to the battery.. The rest is a touch of luxury.. :)

[Blake Michaleski]

The inverter is wired directly to the battery with large guage wire and is fuse protected.

The same inverter that killed the original power supply and caused the spare to temporarily quit is now working fine. If this one ends up going, i'll be going DC-DC

[J West]

A Hell "tech support" person told me that one shouldn't have the power cord and battery installed simultaneously for long periods. I had almost always had both installed all the time prior to that. I'll believe David before a Hell "tech support" person 100% of the time.

We've had a Compaq M2100 laptop since they came out (~2004?) and it's still on it's factory battery, which is left installed 100% of the time. It's plugged into 120v more often than not, and this has never caused a problem with the battery becoming hot or overcharged. Any mainstream laptop should have a charging circuit that will maintain the proper power distribution.

[Stuart Robinson]

One thing to note is that some branded DC-DC converters are actually inverters housed in a single unit - the way to tell the differnce is the weight - true DC-DC are light as they are just electronics - if the unit is heavy it means that it has a transformer inside and is therefore it is a disgused inverter unit in a single package - I have seen generic DC-DC laptop suplies in the US (belkin) for about $60

Another thing ~ most DC-DC units are made of plastic - not metal ;)