CFDG policy [Archive]

Tim Vasquez

11-18-2007, 12:59 PM

Myself and the moderators have had a long pow-wow on the highly controversial CFDG issue that boiled over on this board last week. Our decision is that suppressing discussion about the group is a departure from our editorial policy and is against the best interests of Stormtrack.

However, for the past 30 years, the spirit of Stormtrack has been to share weather knowledge and strengthen the social bonds within the severe weather community. Our members are fully expected to adhere to these standards. Alienating other people within the chase community does not fix anything... working for positive change does.

To further defuse any perceived conflicts of interest, I resigned my CFDG membership this morning... that way you can be assured that from here on out I am representing the interests of Stormtrack.

Tim

Dave Gallaher

11-18-2007, 01:14 PM

Wow, Tim---I'm sorry to see that the issue has become that extreme. It sure seems like the volatility factor is high right now.

Doesn't Mr. T publish a foe-cast map that charts volatility probability?

Martin North

11-18-2007, 01:47 PM

I hope you all realise how committed to Stormtrack Tim is.

He put this place first...remember that!

Shane Adams

11-18-2007, 02:10 PM

I'm surprised to see you resigned from CFDG (wasn't neccesary IMPO) but I appreciate the gesture as far as your commitment to StormTrack. As always, I'm just happy to be a member.

Craig Maire II

11-18-2007, 05:00 PM

I hate to sound ignorant esp. since everyone else seems to know about CFDG but who are they?:confused:

Jeff Miller

11-18-2007, 05:03 PM

Per Rich Thompson on the now infamous thread:

"It's a private discussion board that's paid for by a small group of founders. The bulletin board didn't show up until the last year or two. It was all email before that.

There are some similarities with ST, but it's more tightly moderated and there are fewer members than ST."

MatthewCarman

11-18-2007, 05:30 PM

Wow Tim you made a sacrafice for ST. That shows how much you realy care about this site.

Maggie Kahman

11-18-2007, 05:59 PM

To further defuse any perceived conflicts of interest, I resigned my CFDG membership this morning... that way you can be assured that from here on out I am representing the interests of Stormtrack.

Wow...I dont really know what was going on, but im very pleased with the outcome. Well done, Tim. I can now say i am truly proud to be a member of ST:)

Could someone please fill me in on what just happened? I have to admit i am a tad bit confused here.

mike scantlin

11-18-2007, 06:02 PM

Wow Tim you made a sacrafice for ST. That shows how much you realy care about this site.

It realy does. I apreciate your hard work Tim. I'm proud to be a member here.

Robert Edmonds

11-18-2007, 06:30 PM

I really had no idea what the CFDG was up until yesterday. I still don’t quite get it, but I guess the CFDG is a big deal since I googled it and it appeared on a person’s resume. If it’s that big of a deal, I respect your decision to resign from that group to show your support for this board.

Terry Tyler

11-18-2007, 07:55 PM

that was very honorable, tim...

i think you made the right decision...

Jeff Smith

11-18-2007, 10:21 PM

Thanks Tim. You do a great job here & I have learned a lot from the community & continue to do so.
Thanks again.

Melissa Moon

11-18-2007, 11:00 PM

Aww Tim you didn't have to do that :(...I don't think that CFDG should be pitted in any way against Stormtrack. But I do respect your decision.

Karen Politte

11-19-2007, 07:06 AM

Stormtrack's very lucky to have so many who are concerned enough for its welfare that they will make these gestures. I'm sorry you came under so much pressure (both on and off ST) that you felt these measures were necessary, Tim.

From all perspectives that I am afforded, your position was most likely untenable being a member of both. Sometimes it gets tiring, fighting and defending everything all of the time.

As a side note I'd like to say that I think that the FCST section of ST is really developing well and the signal-noise ratio this past season was very good.

KL

Paul Austin

11-19-2007, 09:47 PM

I don't think the gesture was necessary IMO, either. You already contribute so much to ST and the chaser community as a whole, Tim. I think the idea that some might have felt your membership to both boards represented a conflict of interest is a sad realization (as if the two organizations should somehow be in competition with each other). I don't know you well personally, but that thought wouldn't even cross my mind. I understand your decision. But CFDG member or otherwise, I appreciate everything you do in support of ST.

Tim Vasquez

11-19-2007, 10:00 PM

Well, I haven't exactly martyred myself... as I mentioned there are some other considerations part of which is my lack of time to participate on both boards and the much higher standards there for regular participation. In that sense, trying to be part of both communities for whatever purpose, while leading one of them, isn't realistic.

Tim

Danny Cheresnick

11-20-2007, 12:45 AM

that was very honorable, tim...

i think you made the right decision...

Thats an extremely unfortunate point of view. There is no reason someone with Tim's experience and recognized expertise in the field should be in a position to "decide" which board to make his primary discussion location.

While many here do not appreciate or understand or agree with CFDG for various reasons, that doesn't make it a right vs. wrong issue. It is another location for many experienced meteorologists/chasers to share knowledge, forecasts, and opinions. And now Tim was forced to choose one or the other because of this lack of understanding by the minority.

Dick McGowan

11-20-2007, 09:59 PM

Thats an extremely unfortunate point of view. There is no reason someone with Tim's experience and recognized expertise in the field should be in a position to "decide" which board to make his primary discussion location.

No one forced him to do anything, and if anyone did, it wasn't anyone on this board.

And now Tim was forced to choose one or the other because of this lack of understanding by the minority.

Hmm, wonder why there is lack of understanding it? Maybe it's because it has been so hush-hush, and with no one ever explaining the board, people drew their own assumptions. I would also be careful in saying that it's the "minority," because very few on this board who aren't on CFDG, know very little or nothing about it.

Of course, I knew about it, what the rules were, and why it exists. That doesn't bother me one bit.

Danny Cheresnick

11-20-2007, 10:30 PM

No one forced him to do anything, and if anyone did, it wasn't anyone on this board.

Clearly Tim felt it was necessary for the interest of ST. If there wasn't the entire thread of absurdities about CFDG on ST it wouldn't have been an issue. And once the thread was closed, a second thread questioning the motives was started immediately. Thus, yes he was forced into that position.

Hmm, wonder why there is lack of understanding it? Maybe it's because it has been so hush-hush, and with no one ever explaining the board, people drew their own assumptions. I would also be careful in saying that it's the "minority," because very few on this board who aren't on CFDG, know very little or nothing about it.

You are using the wrong definition of the word understanding. Instead of "to perceive the meaning of", try "to accept tolerantly or sympathetically".

As for it never being explained, why should it be? Its another forum, a private one, if you aren't part of it, you really don't need to know all the details about it. That really should have been the end of the discussion of it.

And yes the minority. About 10 people (probably less) got all in an uproar about something that doesn't effect them at all. 10 people of a membership of 1100+ is under 1%, an extreme minority by any statistical definition.

Patrick Marsh

11-20-2007, 10:47 PM

I've seen a lot of people post on here about CFDG stating "...it doesn't bother me one bit..."

If it doesn't bother people one bit then why are we still talking about it. Because of people's egos a huge rift in the storm chasing community is underway and unless people really do get to the point of not letting it bother them (and I know some people don't really care) this rift is only going to get worse. I already know of at least one person, who I deeply respect, who has left this board over the whole CFDG situation. Based on some of the shady stuff that occurred a little before the locking of the "yahoo" thread, I'm surprised more people haven't disavowed StormTrack. People need to stop and ask themselves if they are really any better than the people they are posting against. A fanatic is a fanatic no matter what side of the argument you're on.

People may say, why are you saying this now...the thread is almost over. To that my response is it's only a matter of time before another variation of this thread comes up.

Shane Adams

11-20-2007, 10:49 PM

I think the most important observation is StormTrackers don't need CFDG (and vice versa). One came before the other, but both satisfy the needs of their members, which, at the end of the day, is the same.

EDIT: I didn't see Patrick's post before I posted, so I'll add a comment based on his entry...

There will always be a rift in the chasing community, because people just don't always like each other or get along. Otherwise there would be one giant spot on the net where all chasers converged. It's not about who thinks they're better than who, it's simply who gets along with who, who thinks like who, and who is on the same "wavelength" with who. Tons of people on CFDG have seen tornadoes. Tons of people on StormTrack have seen tornadoes. They both house talent, so which one you belong to is of no consequence.

Just my opinion.

Robert Dewey

11-20-2007, 11:04 PM

...a position to "decide" which board to make his primary discussion location.

Tim stated his reasons - it wasn't solely because of the CFDG incident.

And now Tim was forced to choose one or the other because of this lack of understanding by the minority.First, see above. Second, I'm not sure how you are able to determine that there is a lack of understanding since it's an opinionated topic.

Either way, Tim made a noble decision; to devote more time to StormTrack. Since a supposed requirement of the CFDG group is "quality input" and "frequent contribution", it would be hard to 1) run a forum, and 2) meet the said requirements in a simultaneous manner.

I may be misunderstanding here, but I believe that's what Tim was trying to say.

Mike Hollingshead

11-21-2007, 12:25 AM

I'd just like to notify my friends on here that I'm going through a very difficult time in my life. Each time someone "jumps ship" or "leaves the board", I want to cry. I worry it was because of me. I worry about what others on private boards think about what I think outloud about private boards, while on an open board. I worry about forum owners jumping the private ships over what I think about being able to talk about private boards on open boards. I'm a wreck of concern. I'm sacrificing my username and password for chasing and the community. There are just times in life where a sacrifice is needed. It's here now. Almost like the end times are near. I tried my cat, but I got all scratched up.

I'm going to pray to the baby jesus now, for the community to be healed.

"Baby Jesus, will you help the chasing community in this time of need? Can you show those who think we're intolerable and not understanding that all the ship jumpers have it worse? Please. Can you create a private list for everyone that needs it, and get them to post on open lists for everyone else that needs it? Can you make sure all statements have one meaning...and it's just how the reader reads it? Is there anyway you could get the children to grow up and the adults to play a bit? Can you exclude me from the having to grow up part? Most importantly, I was wondering, can I keep my own private list, that only I'm on? I like to keep my only worthwhile posts on that one.

Thanks!

PS: Baby jesus, you still there? While we are helping the community heal. I think lightbars for everyone might be a good idea. Light our way. I'm envisioning a massive gathering of friends, like at a big concert, but everyone holding up their lightbars together as one. Imagine....it's easy if you try.

Steve Miller OK

11-21-2007, 12:43 AM

Amen.

Heck, I thought this was all over so I haven't been paying close attention. I had no idea we have moved on to interpreting Tim's thoughts and actions. Are we starting a religion here?

Edward Ballou

11-21-2007, 07:52 AM

PS: Baby jesus, you still there? While we are helping the community heal. I think lightbars for everyone might be a good idea. Light our way. I'm envisioning a massive gathering of friends, like at a big concert, but everyone holding up their lightbars together as one. Imagine....it's easy if you try.

You forgot the "laying there in your main-jer" part. Thanks for the humor Mike - I've always appreciated your posts.

Tim, I can't even begin to understand all the reasons for what you did. I know I appreciate it. Your dedication to ST through the years has been amazing - even with all the other things going on in your life. Many thanks for what you do and the support of the mod team.

Patrick Marsh

11-21-2007, 09:35 AM

There will always be a rift in the chasing community, because people just don't always like each other or get along. Otherwise there would be one giant spot on the net where all chasers converged. It's not about who thinks they're better than who, it's simply who gets along with who, who thinks like who, and who is on the same "wavelength" with who. Tons of people on CFDG have seen tornadoes. Tons of people on StormTrack have seen tornadoes. They both house talent, so which one you belong to is of no consequence.

Just my opinion.
My biggest concern is that someone is going to start another thread (irrespective of CFDG), piss another group of people off, who in turn go and start DFCG (Discussion of Forecasts by Chasing Gurus). The CFDG rift is there and will most likely always be there, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't stop and think about their posts before hitting the submit button.

I have to admit that I am not a member of CFDG, but based on the childish actions of some (not talking about you, Shane) I considered leaving StormTrack - and I don't have another forum to go join. If people are so upset and threatened about a group like CFDG that they feel the need to either consciously or subconsciously run them off, what is going to happen the next time someone (or a group of someones) says something others don't like? Pretty soon all you will have left is a group of like minded individuals. Diversity is a friend to forums like this and I feel StormTrack is teetering on the edge of sliding down this slippery slope.

Dick McGowan

11-21-2007, 10:56 AM

Patrick,

Were you talking about the childish actions of the "Slash R" on someone's website or the "Darwinism" wished upon on certain chasers on various websites? Just curious.

As for that "person" you deeply respect, that left, I know of a lot of others that do not post here (or sign up) for what I posted above. But maybe the person you respect deserves more respect than the person I respect. lol. Leaving Stormtrack is someone's choice, and if that person wishes to leave, I'm willing to bet he has another place to go anyways.

As far as egos go, I think that has to do with why that whole "shady" thread was started in the first place. You're right, a fanatic is a fanatic. And a manipulator and compulsive liar are exactly that. (Not you Patrick)

Patrick Marsh

11-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Childish actions are childish actions. It doesn't matter on what side of this argument they occurred. People's responses to the slash crap is what sickened me and had me contemplating leaving.

People who got in an uproar over the slash crap are the same people who want the "veterans" to get off their backs for how they chase. I know people have said that they have learned from past mistakes and don't want to be judged based on them. They want second, third, forth, and so on number of chances to demonstrate they have learned from the past. Yet not a single one of these same people were willing to give Greg and the other CFDGers the same chance. Greg apologized and took down the offending site and yet people are still upset that it happened. Using the same kind of rationale, the CFDGers should still be upset over some of the so called "yahoo" behavior.

As for the Darwin theory quotes, I reserve the right to make a decision about the situation until I can talk to the person(s) involved. Passing judgment on someone(s) before getting the whole story is irresponsible. For crying out loud, people were ready to string up Chuck for his comments and I've yet to hear anyone say they were present when the alleged comments were made. People have no clue as to the context in which the statement was made, whether the statement was quoted accurately, or anything of the sort. I'm sure glad that the US judicial system doesn't work this way.

How one handles one's self when a wrong has been committed against them is a sign of one's maturity.

Two wrongs don't make a right...

(...but three lefts do.)

Mikey Gribble

11-21-2007, 12:19 PM

Patrick Marsh

11-21-2007, 12:57 PM

Doswell's feelings on the matter left little room for interpretation Patrick. In addition to that if you look around you can see other first hand comments on how he feels about the yahoo chasers. There was no misinterpretation going on.
If somebody wants to leave, fine. I don't care that he left and I definitely won't loose any sleep over it. I'll give 10-1 odds he'll be back anyways.
Let's keep things in perspective. Once incident of disagreement doesn't translate into intolerance. If people don't like to read threads that are "childish", then don't read them. It's real easy to avoid that stuff. IMO nothing childish took place aside from a few comments from the so called "veterans", and that isn't even a big deal IMO. I make sensational statements all the time. It's called being sarcastic. You can't interpret those kinds of things literally. That's not at all what irked me about the whole CFDG thing.
It sounds to me like you want to give the benefit of the doubt to any of the CFDG guys, but anybody on ST that commented was childish. I don't quite understand that. There were actions that set off this whole thing and then there were REactions from some guys on ST. One wouldn't have happened if the other didn't precede it.
I don't think this is a big deal at all. There is no casam opening up between the chasing community that wasn't already there. Some people are never going to understand or respect how some of the younger guys chase and that's fine. If you want to make public comments on it though then be prepared to have people refute them.

You said it yourself. You make sensational statements and people can interpret them anyway they want. However, when Chuck makes a sensational statement, he is [insert you own choice word here]. Again, it goes back to context. If people aren't there they have no idea how it should be taken. This also goes for people's posts. How often do people misinterpret someone's posts as an attack when it was nothing more than a joke or sarcasm?

I do want to give the benefit of the doubt to the CFDGers. I would have given the benefit of the doubt to StormTrackers as well - and a vast majority of them I still do. However, there are some who made post after post making their viewpoints very clear. If I've misunderstood someone's posts, then please enlighten me. Everyone should be given a chance to clarify something that they feel was taken out of context or misunderstood.

Speaking to that affect, I want to make sure I understand something you just said. People are not held accountable for their REactions since they are the result of someone else's actions first?

Edit to add:
I'm fully aware that anything I post on here can, and will, be refuted. I've been around long enough to see that some people will argue about anything. (For clarification: this is not directed at anyone in particular. It is just an observation I've made in my time on this board.)

Jeff Snyder

11-21-2007, 01:05 PM

I just wonder how some people care about this so much. I have opinions on a lot of different groups and people, but I don't feel the need to express them on here. For that, there are more appropriate venues, such as my personal blog or website. I don't feel the need to go around and start commenting on groups like Storm2K.org, easteruswx, or other group. Each group is different, for better or for worse. Likewise, why does it matter what some person thinks? How does "person X's" opinion on some matters affect me? People have all sorts of different opinions with which I disagree, but, 99% of the time, I just shrug my shoulders and move on. Someone doesn't like "newb" chasers? Who cares? Interestinly, some folks say they don't care, but they then act offended and get vocal about the issue. If nobody truly cared, this thread wouldn't be 3 pages long, and the other threads wouldn't have been a big deal.

To each his own, I say. If you want all chasers to go away, then fine. If you want every mom and pop to grab their lawn chair to drive around and "chase", then so be it. I'll continue to do what I do, and you continue to do what you do. Isn't that easy?

We all bring something different to the table. Some people are very knowledgeable in certain areas of meteorology, while others are very much beginners when it comes to the science of severe storms and tornadoes. Likewise, some folks choose to get the "extreme" shots by trying to get as close to a tornado as possilble, while others go for structure shots and stay 10+ miles from the tornado. Alienating a fellow storm chaser (or group of chasers) for his or her opinion doesn't seem to be in the best interest of the storm chasing community, IMO, and it certainly isn't in the best interest of Stormtrack. We have a lot of members who contribute heavily to the forum, and nobody should have to feel like they are being alienated and discouraged from posting. Unfortunately, belligerence doesn't exactly say "come, stay here, and contribute to our goal of making Stormtrack a better place".

Mike Hollingshead

11-21-2007, 01:23 PM

It's just a freaking topic, ain't it? SO WHAT if people do want to talk about it. Lordy. Other lists are so damn fragile, we should just not discuss them at all, for their sake and the sake of the rest of the fragiles that "don't feel the need to talk about them" just a need to talk about talking about them(makes even more sense imo).

So many opinions on not having an opinion.

It was dying fairly well till those on the "drop your thoughts" side started posting.

Glen Romine

11-21-2007, 01:24 PM

I think Chuck has earned the right to say whatever he pleases. In fact, isn't that a basic right? But, if you don't like what he has to say, you should tell him about it. The two of you may continue to disagree, but there is a better chance of mutual respect if you communicate with him directly. To suggest that anyone else who is a member of CFDG shares his views is an unfair generalization, though I know some hard feelings will probably never be rooted out among some individuals. Some old habits die hard, and some legends never die regardless of their factual nature. There are a number of damn good people in that group, and their reasons for being there may have little to do with wanting to separate themselves from the ST crowd. Sure, it would be nice if more of the CFDG members would come over here to enlighten the masses (some do), but maybe some of them just are too busy to deal with the monstrosity that is ST. I for one don't hold that against them. Back to Tim choosing to resign from their board, I think it is rather sad to hear as yet another bridge between the communities would fall.

Jeff Miller

11-21-2007, 01:30 PM

I think Chuck has earned the right to say whatever he pleases

Nobody on this planet has, can, or ever will earn the right to wish harm on anyone in any way, in public or on paper, joking or otherwise - period. to say that accomplishments earn someone the "right" to say things intended for harm - joking or not - is inexcusable. It boggles my mind how people can be excused for their actions due to their status or accomplishments. Just as a point - the legal system does not work that way in almost any situation - it does not show favoritism based on accomplishments (or should not anyway), and neither does common sense when it comes to things said on a lectern in a public setting..

Mike Peregrine

11-21-2007, 01:47 PM

Our decision is that suppressing discussion about the group is a departure from our editorial policy and is against the best interests of Stormtrack.

Stormtrack currently has an open policy on discussion about CFDG ... so to his each own. If people want to talk about it, let them. Maybe there are some who need to come to some sort of conclusion as to why the situation exists in the first place.

It's not going away anytime soon. Seems like some more balance would be nice to see on both sides of the issue.

From my perspective, the problem here is pretty simple. Sorry ... but if one board has members who consistently choose to look down their noses on the community using whatever public venue is available to them, I would guess that the 'community' will consistently choose to do the same. And dead horse or not, this issue will keep coming up over and over again.

This is a bed that was made years and years ago if you ask me. Hopefully everyone is comfy lying in whichever one they chose.

Mikey Gribble

11-21-2007, 02:33 PM

No Patrick, I didn't mean to imply that somebody that reacts to something shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. They most certainly should, but what the root cause of that reaction was (right or wrong) also should be taken into consideration.
I'm not trying to apply Doswell's feelings or comments to the whole CFDG crowd. I like several guys on there and have the utmost respect for them. Others I don't. I have seen several other CFDG members make very similiar comments to Doswell's though and I got the impression that the mentality was shared by many in certain groups. That's not a generalization or stereotype IMO.
Like I said before, I have tons of respect for Doswell on an intellectual level. My top three favorite meteorology books were all written by him, but I strongly disagree with what he said and the mentality that his comment represents. Nobody should get a free pass because of who they are and what they've done.
Another thing that bothers me a little bit is the default respect that some of those guys get. Being an expert in any field of atmospheric science doesn't translate to being a good chaser and I think a lot of people make that leap. Some of the best forecasters of tornadoes for storm chasing purposes aren't even meteorologists. Some of the biggest names in research and academics relative to meteorology aren't so good at chasing. It works both ways. I see CFDG as a group of extended friends more than a group of elite chasers.
The whole look down upon other chaser attitude from only a couple of the CFDG guys is the only thing that bothers me. That's not unique to CFDG either. It's not my intention to make blanket statements about CFDG and if I came across as saying that I didn't mean to.
I think it's ironic that the same people that are advocating letting everybody do as they please and chase how they want are also the same ones that are saying don't talk about this or don't talk about that. It kind of goes against the premise of your argument and implies a bit of a contradiction IMO. I'm not trying to call anybody out or start an argument by saying that. I'm just trying get other people to see both sides of this a little more clearly.
If somebody wants a private forum, go for it. I don't really care. The only thing I care about are some of the comments that were made and the mentality of some of the people in that forum. I expressed my opinions on that just like they did. I don't intend to do any more than that. I may not agree with how CFDG functions, but it's not like I can do anything about it.
The whole deal over somebody leaving ST because they didn't get their way is laughable IMO. I don't care if somebody leaves because they don't like something. Nobody on here is that important. The alternative is bowing to every single persons desire when they get upset. That's ridiculous. You can't please everybody so stick to what you think is right and move along.
This whole deal is becoming a big argument about nothing and I really don't want to piss people off any more over something this insignificant. I don't even really know why I'm still involved in this discussion.

Karen Politte

11-21-2007, 04:21 PM

Oh my gosh, folks.

What we are redigesting here is human nature - clear and simple. I think this whole topic has just about reached it's expiration date and it's starting to taste like the stale Allsup's burrito that it really is. There have been great points made by many people on and from EVERY angle. I think it is wise to remember that everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Would it not be more worthwhile to let those who want to say something say it - and then let it simmer and die down? All the time and posting effort that has gone into this thread - a lot of it apparently motivated by frustration, nitpicking or disagreement rather than the core issue/s - would be far better served putting it into one of the meteorology/chasing-related threads that ST is really here to provide.

It's Thanksgiving, it's the off-season, and there have been TORs in southeast MO today (bet hardly anybody noticed! ;) ). Be thankful that ST is here, be thankful that there are STILL many knowledgeable chasers here who post FCSTs and insights, and be happy. Like I said before - with the sheer size of chasing these days, there will ALWAYS be someone out there you don't agree with and there'll ALWAYS be someone out there who drives you crazy. Do your therapist a favor and steer clear of them!

KL

Patrick Marsh

11-21-2007, 06:48 PM

Thanks, Mikey, for the clarification. I see your point of view better now and can understand where you are coming from.

I just want to clarify one thing about the individual who left. This person did not leave as a result of not getting their way. The person I'm thinking of left as a result of some shady stuff that happened in addition to the discussion on the forum. It's the shady stuff that caused the problem.

Bill Tabor

11-26-2007, 12:29 AM

Hey what did I miss here? CFDG thread? Chuck on ST? When did all this happen - which thread?

Last time I was in a thread with Chuck was briefly when I first started as a fairly new chaser on Wx-Chase.

For background info (for those that don't know) as I understand CFDG was primarily started to give Sci type chasers a more formal meeting place to discuss serious issues related to meteorology and chasing. This came about because particularly wx-chase was a massive flame bath in those days.

I can definitely see the reasons for it's existence. I was always sad I missed out on the experience of those when they left wx-chase. I'll have to check up on this thread but sounds to me based on the controversy like people have too much time on their hands.