03/14/08 DISC: GA

[Jeff Miller]

Discussion on severe thunderstorm and likely Tornado circulation that hit downtown Atlanta at approximately 9:45 PM EDT.

Severe storm damage extensive throughout Atlanta from this supercell thunderstorm. The roof of the Georgia Dome was ripped off, the game interrupted. Widespread damage in Downtown atlanta with heavily damaged building, damaged trees, widespread debris, and even collapsed condominiums.

As many as 15 injuries, one life threatening, have been reported as of the time of this writing.

No severe thunderstorm or tornado watches were in effect prior to this severe episode, however Atlanta area was under a Slight Risk with 2% Tor threat. The National Weather Service did issue a Tornado Warning at 9:30 PM for Central Fulton County, giving a 10-15 minute lead time. TVS Algorithm tracked directly over Downtown Atlanta prior to damage reports coming in.

Wikipedia already has a stub on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_tornado


NWS Survey will be in Atlanta at 7 AM for surveying. Local media forecasters are preliminarily assessing this as a "possible tornado with what appears to be EF-2 Damage."

[Kevin Bowman]

What a terrible job the people at the georgia dome did.

i know this has been posted already but im going to go ahead and post it again. Listen 33 seconds in, it literally sounds like a frieght train. It really starts around 20 seconds with the low rumble but it really gets loud around 33

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7TT013NsSYc

[jason kissam]

wow thank goodness that catwalk didnt come down. hope no one was injured trying to get out of the arena.

[Ryan McGinnis]

What a terrible job the people at the georgia dome did.

i know this has been posted already but im going to go ahead and post it again. Listen 33 seconds in, it literally sounds like a frieght train. It really starts around 20 seconds with the low rumble but it really gets loud around 33

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7TT013NsSYc

Not to play devil's advocate here, but what would you propose they have done? Even assuming they had a 20 minute warning lead-time, which they apparently didn't have here, where do you stuff 71,000 people that quickly? The dome doesn't have a 71,000 capacity basement, and they won't fit in th hallways, either. Would you tell 71,000 people to run out to their cars?

When you deal with that many people, the risk of death from panic stampede is a very real concern. Announcing that there is a tornado heading right for the dome and that there's nowhere for anyone to go is a bit counterproductive, I'd think.

[Joel Wright]

It sounds like if the game wouldn't have went into overtime, everyone would have been out in the parking lot trying to leave. Kind of scary.

[Jay McCoy]

It sounds like if the game wouldn't have went into overtime, everyone would have been out in the parking lot trying to leave. Kind of scary.

Actually it was a double header with an even bigger game.... Georgia/Kentuky game to follow so nobody was leaving. It ended up being postponed until today.

By the way Ryan there were only about 30,000 at the game. The Dome officials acted horribly. seconds after the tornado hit you can hear the PA announcer tell the crowd that severe wx was impacting downtown Atlanta showing they knew of the warning ahead of time. Soon as they knew they should have stopped the game and had people ushered into the underlying areas under the stands. the players were taken back into that area so why not the fans. There are huge storage areas surrounded by concrete under these stadiums along with the tunnels themselves. even getting people close to the walls instead of in the middle of a huge arena. If those swaying steel beams had collapsed then thousands would have been injured or killed.

Like we have said a thousand times on here a major sportiing event will be hit and there will be mas casualties. maybe then they will take wx serious at these stadiums.

[B Ozanne]

I agree, they should have stopped the game and ushered people into a safe area. But its a fine line between an orderly evacuation and mass chaos. We've all seen footage of soccer stadium or bridge stampedes. Thankfully not in this country.

Domes are actually considered to be very strong and safe structures. Maybe there was a plan, and engineers had decided that weighing the odds of a scaffold or roof collapse over a stampede, this situation played out perfectly.

It sure looks dramatic to see those large objects swaying on cables, but I'm guessing they weren't hanging by threads.

[Ryan McGinnis]

Actually it was a double header with an even bigger game.... Georgia/Kentuky game to follow so nobody was leaving. It ended up being postponed until today.

By the way Ryan there were only about 30,000 at the game. The Dome officials acted horribly. seconds after the tornado hit you can hear the PA announcer tell the crowd that severe wx was impacting downtown Atlanta showing they knew of the warning ahead of time. Soon as they knew they should have stopped the game and had people ushered into the underlying areas under the stands. the players were taken back into that area so why not the fans. There are huge storage areas surrounded by concrete under these stadiums along with the tunnels themselves. even getting people close to the walls instead of in the middle of a huge arena. If those swaying steel beams had collapsed then thousands would have been injured or killed.

Like we have said a thousand times on here a major sportiing event will be hit and there will be mas casualties. maybe then they will take wx serious at these stadiums.

Here's the problem though: when you get that many people in one place and tell them there is a life threatening emergency, it's quite likely that any attempt to herd them safely to a new area is going to cause a stampede. Panicked people generally don't act orderly. Try as you might, telling a stadium full of people to funnel down to the basement because they might die if they don't is likely to lead to hundreds of dead bodies piled up at the exits. There is a long history of stadium stampedes that cause mass fatalities, and many induced by situations far less threatening than a tornado emergency. So you are left with weighing the probability of a stampede due to emergency, which is relatively high, versus the probability of an actual tornado strike, which in most circumstances is relatively low. This is assuming you get at least 30 minutes warning, since moving tens out thousands of people inside a stadium at once takes a very long time. With 5 minutes warning, I suspect you're better off not telling anyone about it.

I think the cold truth is that once people are packed into a large indoor sports arena, many of those arenas must rely primarily on their engineering to protect people from severe weather. Trying to move people to more sheltered areas presents a risk to life. Evacuation is usually not possible. While every venue is different and poses different challenges, I think it might be a bit early to say that in this instance the management of Georgia Dome acted poorly. There were a lot more factors that came into play besides just the imminent tornado risk, and ultimately the net outcome of a direct or near direct tornado hit was 0 injuries, 0 fatalities.

*edited to correct my terrible grammar skills and to correct name of stadium :)*

[cedwards]

In 1990, a tornado came close (visible from the stadium) to an ongoing baseball game at College Station, TX. They successfully evacuated the stadium to the bathrooms and hallways. This was a slightly different situation as the tornado was visible and it was an open stadium, but it CAN be done successfully.


This just in. A news conference in Atlanta confirmed it was a tornado and they mentioned it was EF-2.

[Jeff Miller]

Charles, this is a confirmation from the NWS Survey?

[Chad Cowan]

News conference says it was a 200 yard wide EF-2 with a 6 mile path. Initial touchdown was at Simpson and Burbank downtown and tracked directly over CNN Center and Omni Hotel where EF-1 damage occurred. The EF-2 damage occurred at the Cotton Mill apartment complex.

An insurance adjuster on Fox 5 Atlanta just said he expects the Georgia World Congress Center repairs to cost over $100 million. He also said the damage to the Georgia Dome was mainly cosmetic.


EDIT: How is there no video of this tornado? If not from one of the millions of people who were in the area, there has to be an archived webcam or security camera.

[Patrick Marsh]

Since it happened downtown, there is always the chance that their wasn't a condensation funnel. The pavement will make it hard to kick up dirt to see the tornado at the surface.

[Jeff Miller]

Unconfirmed reports from citizens who were downtown from various sources are indicating there was a visible condensation funnel.

I wish someone videotaped it - I'm keeping an eye on youtube for anything that might surface.

[Jesse V. Bass III]

just herd they confirmed an EF/2 in Atlanta last night

[jladue]

I expect there'll be a few questions asked about why the officials didn't notify fans in advance. What can they do about it? Certainly they can't send them home. Of all places, I'll take my chances inside a dome than out in the parking lot. I'd rather have enough room behind the stands to stay. Some stadiums have enough room in their concourses but I've been in some that certainly don't.

Remember the Iowa State/Colorado game a couple Novembers back? The officials there had advance comms with the NWS, then had a watch and a prewarning, then a warning. They acted by sending flyers to everyone that entered the game that severe wx was a possibility and that nearby campus buildings have been opened to provide shelter. All the good steps were taken which probably would be something that everyone should take emulate. But there's only so much stadium operators can do. Several thousand tailgaters were watching the Iowa state tornado pass by to the north by a couple miles.

I have no idea whether or not the Atlanta officials were aware of the approaching supercell or in contact with forecasters. There appeared to be no watch. Then in 10 minutes they suddenly have a choice that I wouldn't want to make. They're were probably a lot of hopes and prayers going on about what to do. In the end, everyone was okay this time.


regards,

Jim

[Alexandre Aguiar]

Aerial footage from Downtown Atlanta:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EPdJah-P0F8

[Howard Robinson]

Pictures of damage from last night:
www.wsbtv.com (http://www.wsbtv.com)
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6038719&version=63&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

....more to come....

[Aaron Kennedy]

"Since it happened downtown, there is always the chance that their wasn't a condensation funnel. The pavement will make it hard to kick up dirt to see the tornado at the surface."

I gotta call ya on this one although truly, I'm just giving you a hard time. Condensation will be related to whether you can lower the pressure enough to reach saturation. Is tornado location relevant? Probably not, but you could hypothesize that large structures (skyscrapers) will have a negative influence on a vortex by impeding inflow, etc.

[B Ozanne]

The 1999 Salt Lake City tornado produced a condensation/debris funnel.

[Billy Griffin]

Just watched some coverage on TV where one of the city officials stated, "we had no warning that severe weather was approaching our area."
Not sure if this was the Mayor, City Manager, or who she was?

I give up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SPC had risks posted days in advance, watches went up prior to any cells approaching Atlanta...... warnings WERE indeed issued. There is NO hope for some people !!!
Unless we designate a group of people to go door to door and warn every single person, there'll always be those who manage to appear on TV stating, "we had no warning." :mad:
I get so tired of this, and then after the fact, they cry for FEMA, Red Cross, DES, and want millions of dollars in aid.

I hate how this sounds, but at some point, I start losing sympathy for these people. I know that sounds so cruel, and I certainly would NEVER wish tragedy upon anyone, but what more can the warning systems do?
Aid in helping rebuild or for those injured = yes. Aid in people sitting on their a$$ and expecting tax dollars to fund their living = NO.

[Danny Neal]

Wasn't there only 9 minutes warning from 926 PM EDT to time of impact 935 PM EDT SPC in their latest MCD was trending down on the events in this region on mentioning a minimal hail and wind threat and there was no watch in effect. I believe a slight risk was in place but I figured that was for the MCS that was going to move through in the early hours. Like many of the meteorologists have said today from ATL area...."This wasn't supposed to happen until today" The storm display supercell characteristics throughout its life but only when it got to the ATL Metro it got it's act together. I heard one anchor woman mention "the heat from the city might have fueled the storm" (meh - anything is possible but I am HIGHLY skeptical) I wonder why it did get briefly organized (although I stopped following the storm once it hit since i wanted to watch the coverage) so it could have just kept on going and being tornadic, but haven't heard reports of that yet. Many of the people in the GA Dome in fact didn't have any warning. I read an article from cbs.sportsline.com from the SEC championship coverage and a lot of people did say they received text messages and phone calls from loved ones about the danger. I am sure though many were thinking "nahhhh not here"

[Patrick Marsh]

I gotta call ya on this one although truly, I'm just giving you a hard time. Condensation will be related to whether you can lower the pressure enough to reach saturation. Is tornado location relevant? Probably not, but you could hypothesize that large structures (skyscrapers) will have a negative influence on a vortex by impeding inflow, etc.
Thanks Aaron, poor wording on my part. In fact, wrong wording completely. I meant debris cloud, not condensation funnel. I was going for the lack of dirt and other fine particulates to kick up to make it harder for a debris cloud to be visible. Heavier objects wouldn't be in the air long enough to maintain the constant view of the circulation.

*hangs head in shame*

[Bill Hark]

Here is an image of the Atlanta tornado. If I use my imagination, I may be able to see it though I wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't told there was a tornado. It is a pretty cool shot from one of the buildings. Here is a link to the page about it and there is a link to enlarge the image.

http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=112981

Bill Hark

[Jason Persoff]

Well Bill, when we're out this season, I'm going to have to insist I perform a Snellen test...I'm squinting and up close to my monitor and cannot discern any features to reflect a tornado. However, I do agree that it was an awesome shot--definitely a keeper with beautiful highs/lows and clouds. Great shot given the difficulty in filming a storm from within the urban environment. :)

I found the basketball game video very impressive. The audio is exceptional. I do side with Charles Edwards, however (sorry Charles, I don't mean to drag you down :)): there really was no excuse for them NOT to have an action plan in place. Public places need to have severe weather plans around and they need to be able to convey to people where to go, how to do so, and a way to make that happen in an organized manner.

Instead of a tornado, imagine there was a fire. No one would have said: "there appears to be a fire spreading through downtown Atlanta" over a PA system with no follow-through on the best action to take.

The NCAA game is a big deal to many people. The officials rightly called the game at the same time the tornado hit (based solely on the youtube vid). Many people could have died and that is without excuse.

[Jonathan Williams]

For all of those interested I have attached a map of the tornado's track. Sorry It's so big I tried to make it smaller.

CLICK HERE FOR MAP (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Atlanta_Tornado_Map_Track.jpg)

[Jack Beven]

Here is an image of the Atlanta tornado. If I use my imagination, I may be able to see it though I wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't told there was a tornado. It is a pretty cool shot from one of the buildings. Here is a link to the page about it and there is a link to enlarge the image.

http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=112981

Bill Hark

A question: Is that the tornado in the center of the picture, or is it near the left edge of the picture just to the right of that tall building with the pointy top?

Jack Beven

[Danny Neal]

A question: Is that the tornado in the center of the picture, or is it near the left edge of the picture just to the right of that tall building with the pointy top?

Jack Beven

Far left of the image, the tornado would have moved from the right across to the left, the photo was taken as the storm was in Cabbageville and weakening.

[Perry Williams]

A question: Is that the tornado in the center of the picture, or is it near the left edge of the picture just to the right of that tall building with the pointy top?

Jack Beven

According to Dr Greg Forbes, the tornado was a stovepipe at far left side of the image.....moving left.

I attempted to intercept this supercell while it traversed eastern Paulding and western Cobb counties (WNW of Atlanta). Unfortunately, due to a badly timed train, red lights, and Friday evening heavy traffic on GA 92 between Douglasville (my home) and Hiram, I ended up "playing catch up"; chasing the storm from behind ESE from Hiram to Austell before turning my attention to another intense supercell approaching Haralson county (which eventually dropped marble sized hail in Douglasville around 10:30 EDT).

While driving toward the storm (both from the south on GA hwy 92 and from the WNW on U.S. 278), witnessed a similar vivid and honestly frightening display as shown in this photograph; frequent lightning illuminating a very turbulent, ominous sky. I've been studying and observing severe thunderstorms since the mid 1970's; became a storm spotter in 1982, and have never seen such a wicked nighttime sky in a storm......striations indicating a very vigorous rotating supercell thunderstorm. Even though surface conditions were marginal for a serious tornado in this part of the country (temp 58/ dewpoint mid-upper 50's), I was very concerned this storm would drop a significant, destructive tornado.

[Jason Persoff]

According to Dr Greg Forbes, the tornado was a stovepipe at far left side of the image.....moving left.

Unfortunately, still photography allows a lot of conclusions to be made that end up not being correct. I'm not trying to troll (really :)), but I really don't think this photo allows for ID of storm structures. Nighttime photography, particularly of storm structures, can lead to an innumerable number of lookalikes. Shelf clouds, scud, and others get flagged as tornadoes, and with only flashes of lightning at various angles to illuminate them, they can make a convincing imprint on the imagination. Rarely are storms as illuminated as the one that moved through Greensburg, KS, in May of 2007.

So...the best I can gauge is that there is a vertical cloud structure in the left of the image. Updraft, outflow, shelf, tornado...tough to say. Like I said above, I like the shot a lot. But I'm cautious about saying that this was the monster in action. I've been burned so many times...

[Chad Cowan]

A security camera in downtown Atlanta captured some amazing footage of a horse breaking away from its carriage as the tornado touched down. I'm not sure if we're seeing tornadic circulation or maybe an RFD blast throwing around debris, but it is remarkable nonetheless.

uM3VRaWDvCw

[Rob Satkus]

A body has been found in the rubble being cleaned up in Atlanta after last weeks tornado...has not been confirmed as of yet as a tornado victim.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/03/22/tornado.body.ap/index.html

Rob