Bad Chasing Behavior Hurting Both NWS and Chaser Image

[Tom Dulong]

The following is an email I was forwarded from within the NWS...

All,

I am asking for suggestions for handling this situation.

We just received a report from Rooks County, Kansas. During our severe weather last night we had a large supercell move out of Graham county. This system produced a large, long-track tornado which caused significant damage to several farmsteads, numerous trees and a couple of towns. We have a crew conducting the survey. They contacted the Emergency Manager and stopped at the EOC before venturing into the countryside.

During their visit, local law enforcement officials mentioned that there were large numbers of "chasers" in the county. I am not certain the exact number, however from all accounts they disregarded all emergency vehicles, were driving at excessive speeds and generally were reckless and endangering the lives of others. A number of these "chasers" were pulled over and when confronted by the law enforcement officials, commented that they were on official business and had been sanctioned by the National Weather Service.

----------- (survey crew member) informed them that we do not, and will not endorse these activities from the local NWS office. This is not the first time, and I am sure not the last time that the NWS will be 'utilized' by the chase community. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for me to compose a letter to send to the local law enforcement and/or emergency managers stating that we do not endorse, or support chasing from the local office. It's the Japanese Proverb - "The reputation of a thousand years..."

I'd hate to think that the reputation of WFO Hastings would be negatively impacted by the rash and irresponsible actions of a few "chasers".

[Marcus Opitz]

Anytime I run into anyone in the field I state that I am observing storms, not on behalf of anyone (of course if somthing significant is spotted I would report it)

I hate to say this, but would'nt the law enforcement personal request some sort of credentials to back up those claims???

I am not a cop, but If someone told me that I would want some sort of ID, ect..... :roll:

[Dick McGowan]

Didn't a similar event happen to the south of Garden City , KS involving some tour group? If I remember from a recent thread, I believe they ran a couple of cars off the road on June 3rd. Such chasing ethics should be reconsidered even in the heat of the moment.

[Jeff Snyder]

I agree... I've been pulled over a couple of times while chasing, and I've NEVER said I've chased FOR the NWS. Chasing/spotting is a completely optional activity, and, as the email mentioned, the NWS does not sanction chasing/spotting. I even had a cop ask me a few weeks ago in the TX panhandle if I was chasing for the NWS, to which I said I wasn't. Please don't put blame on the NWS for being out chasing...

[Glen Romine]

I too have been asked before if I was chasing on "official business". I think a letter to local law enforcement might be in order if some chasers are answering yes to this in order to avoid tickets etc.... Not sure if this will start the proliferation of skywarn magnets on the sides of chase vehicles - but agree that some form of documentation should be required - or be in a government vehicle in order to qualify as an "official chaser", not to be confused with the prior thread on professional chasers... ha ha.

Glen

[Tim Stoecklein]

Hmmm, one would think that even if they WERE chasing for NWS, they would be subject to the same traffic laws as the rest of us..................Unless you are local law enforcement or emergency management you are not on "official business" in situations like these.

[John Diel]

I've been pulled over once while chasing. Of course there were radio station logo's on the truck, but I never did try to get out of a ticket, nor imply that I was somehow on "official governement business". The only reason I got out of the ticket was that the Deputy was also a Skywarn Spotter and knew what I was doing and whom I was doing it for.

Last week during the Osage County event, I was asked to help out with Damage Assesment for the EOC at the site. Here, all cameras were off and no reports were made except to ask that people stay out of the areas affected. I had on a different hat and was working under the auspice of the Emergency Operations Manager on the scene.

I would think that "impersonating" a Government Official will get you arrested in most states and may even be a Federal Offense as well. I haven't researched it out, but someday, someone is going to get nailed for doing something stupid like that.

[Dave Carroll]

One of my chase partners is also a state trooper and Skywarn spotter. A few common courtesies can go a long way: a) when trying to make ground on a storm, we always plot a course where we can intercept it some distance down the road without speeding. Sometimes you have to resign yourself to missing some of the action. That's part of the deal. B) we ALWAYS offer assistance if we pass through damage, even something as simple as offering a victim a phone to call a relative. c) On roadways with a significant number of law enforcement vehicles on the roadside, we SLOWLY proceed past or stop altogether, and sometimes make brief conversation with the officers present (it helps when my partner introduces himself as a trooper) to see if any spotting or other assistance is needed (as former EMT's) in surrounding areas. These are sincere offers, which are typically turned down, but DO help to temper the situation and put us in a better light. -DC

[Scott Olson]

Im really disappointed to read this. First, I find it's usually a couple chasers that act that way and it gets reflected on all the chasers out there. During the event in South Dakota on Tuesday there were a couple chasers that kept parking on the Interstate and on the on and off ramp to the Interstate. With the highway patrol around I could not help but think they might view chasers as a safety hazard rather than a safety asset. The reason I say this is there are quite a lot of chasers who call in to the NWS with vital information. And probably just as many chasers who have the skywarn stickers and don't. Im a little confused by the report, was the highway patrol just pulling up on people who were watching the storm? Or is this refering to people getting pulled over for an infraction? I think it's pretty pathetic for any chaser to claim they belong to something they do not. No one needs to do that its not illegal to chase yet!

It's not unusual for there to be some real issues with chaser image, we had the same thing last year a little earlier in the year. And im sure inherently some highway patrol officers will be no doubt be upset about 30-40 chase vehicles descending around a tornadic storm. I think Hastings WFO should write the letter and let them know that.

-Scott.

EDIT: It would be helpful if some people who chased this storm can address what they saw. Was their really reckless disregard for emergency personel? I just can't imagine all the chasers over there blocking emergency vehicles and endangering the public. I wasn't there though..

[Robbie Cox]

I would think that "impersonating" a Government Official will get you arrested in most states and may even be a Federal Offense as well. I haven't researched it out, but someday, someone is going to get nailed for doing something stupid like that.

Up to five years in federal prison and a maximum $250,000 fine on impersonating a Federal employee.

[Damon Shaw]

On those tornadoes in Kansas Thursday, there was some great footage sent to CNN. Unfortunatly, there was a lot of hooping and hollering from these particular chasers (like they were on Spring Break or something) as the the tornado was on the ground. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone know who they were? Shameful, I think.

[Mike Johnson]

My wife and I overheard a conversation on a scanner about
a week ago near DDC about the State Police looking for a
group of white vans passing on the right side of traffic.

This is getting out of control. We need to name names and
not be afraid to openly ask those responsible to get their
act together before someone is killed.

Mike

[Scott Olson]

My wife and I overheard a conversation on a scanner about
a week ago near DDC about the State Police looking for a
group of white vans passing on the right side of traffic.

This is getting out of control. We need to name names and
not be afraid to openly ask those responsible to get their
act together before someone is killed.

Mike

Absolutely, it's up to us to put the spotlight on chasers that are being reckless and careless. In one thread someone posted a picture of a chase car blocking the road and another account of F5! Safari trying to pass on the shoulder. If I see someone doing something like that you can bet my camera will be on their license plate. I know most chasers at one time or another speed a little but I have seen chasers going 30+ miles faster than the speed limit swinging into the other lane to pass other cars. And the one that bothers me the most is people parking on the interstates. I actually saw a chaser who got into trouble with the highway patrol because he pulled over on the interstate to take a picture of a severe cell moving in. I of course went two miles further got off the interstate and found a beautiful spot by the Missorui River very photogenic and not illegal.

[Shane Adams]

On those tornadoes in Kansas Thursday, there was some great footage sent to CNN. Unfortunatly, there was a lot of hooping and hollering from these particular chasers (like they were on Spring Break or something) as the the tornado was on the ground. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone know who they were? Shameful, I think.

I've seen this particular clip, and the tornado is in an open field at the time. Chasers get excited during tornadoes (well, some of us do), and being that the tornado was clearly not threatening life or property, I see no problem with the hooping and hollering. Sometimes it's just innocent excitement, and in this case (at least in the clip I saw this morning), the tornado wasn't harming anyone or anything during that time

[David Drummond]

On those tornadoes in Kansas Thursday, there was some great footage sent to CNN. Unfortunatly, there was a lot of hooping and hollering from these particular chasers (like they were on Spring Break or something) as the the tornado was on the ground. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone know who they were? Shameful, I think.

I've seen this particular clip, and the tornado is in an open field at the time. Chasers get excited during tornadoes (well, some of us do), and being that the tornado was clearly not threatening life or property, I see no problem with the hooping and hollering. Sometimes it's just innocent excitement, and in this case (at least in the clip I saw this morning), the tornado wasn't harming anyone or anything during that time

And sometimes, it's not the chasers, but other people who have stopped near the chasers to watch the show. I have had that happen on SEVERAL occassions and the audio ended up on my video. Don't always assume any whooping and hollaring you hear are the chasers themselves. At one point the other day on one of the tornadoes, there were about 50 cards stopped along the hwy where we were watch, and quiet a bit of noise going on.

[Bryce Stone]

This topic seems to come up every year. Since we in the chase community are unwilling or unable to band together and find a solution for reckless/foolhardy chasing behavior on our own (is there one?), I'm 100% sure that our government will find a solution for us. That's a prediction you can take to the bank.

A chasing organization will never happen (and I don't want to begin another long, tired discussion of it), but a well-run, professional organization would seperate frequent, serious chasers from Joe Bob Smith who acts stupid around storms.

there was a lot of hooping and hollering
Hate to mention this, as it is unimportant in light of what we're discussing, but the word is spelled whooping.

[John Thurston]

After recently returning from my first chase during which I followed some well known experienced chasers.........

We were consistently 15mph over just positioning.
When in chase mode I think they were doing 25+mph over - I couldn't keep up nor did I want to.
Passing on blind hills.
Lead vehicle was going through yellows in towns...........

As an auto engineer I have watched too many crash test and investigated enough accident scenes.
Have to be a lot more selective in chase partners in the future.
I hope this was just an isolated incident.

JT

Does speed replace forecasting skill?

[Marcus Opitz]

I dont know of anyone in the chaser community who gets off on the fact that people lives are in danger, just the shear power of a significant severe weather event.

I think people are too uptight with the aforementioned issue.

As with anything, you must use your best judgement

[Ryan McGinnis]

After recently returning from my first chase during which I followed some well known experienced chasers.........

We were consistently 15mph over just positioning.
When in chase mode I think they were doing 25+mph over - I couldn't keep up nor did I want to.
Passing on blind hills.
Lead vehicle was going through yellows in towns..........

Sounds like a normal day in Denver, to me! :lol:

[Craig Maire II]

When I'm chasing in Iowa and talk to a law enforcement official (not about getting out of a ticket but about what the storm comming into my area is doing as I'm pulled over safely along side a road) I do state that I'm a mobile spotter for the NWS in Desmoines/Quad Cities (which I am) and a storm chaser for KWWL Channel 7, plus its my hobby/obsession to chase these beautiful giants. I have never used my NWS spotter membership to try and get out of a ticket etc. and wouldn't out of respect for the NWS. I feel it is a TOP PRIORITY to stay in good standing with the NWS by giving them quality storm vidoes for spotter training/severe weather warning verification, excellent storm spotting information and by staying out of trouble while chasing. I am known on a first name basis by many at the Desmoines/Quad Cities NWS offices and am not worried about the few idiots who think they can go 100 mph through small towns, pass lines of cars on the shoulder, etc. As long as I keep keep providing SAFE, RELIABLE, storm chaser videos/spotter information I feel that my reputation and that of other chasers who do the same will be fine while what ever happens to the yahoos will happen, there is nothing I can do about them. I let my ACTIONS judge me. Also, about the chasers/regular folks who were whooping and hollering as they watched a tornado travel through a field, whats wrong with that?? If the tornado is tearing up homes/farms I would frown on that kind of behavior but when a tornado such as this one (as Shane stated above) is not threatening life nor property I see nothing wrong with whooping and hollering, they probably spent a TON of money and traveled very far to see this storm and have earned the right to get a little crazy. :D

[Bryce Stone]

Craig, I could be completely wrong here, but I understood that the NWS is not ever directly associated with storm spotter groups in terms of managing them. NWS leaves storm spotter groups and SKYWARN to the emergency management/civil defense of each individual town. Are you saying you volunteer DIRECTLY for the NWS, or do you actually go through your city or county civil defense?

NWS spotter membership THe NWS gives out spotter membership? Again, please let us know if this is membership in the NWS or your local emergency management.

Not picking on you, Craig, just curious.

[Jeff Snyder]

In the Twin Cities, MN, there is a non-profit group called Metro SkyWarn that deals with Skywarn spotter operations in much of central and southern Minnesota. This group is not directly associated with the NWS, so again, I wouldn't say that I used to spot for the NWS, I'd say that I was spotting for Skywarn. Even down in central OK, where NWS directly lead skywarn classes, I wouldn't even say I was spotting for the NWS to get out of a ticket, etc.

[Craig Maire II]

I volunteer directly to my local NWS offices. By membership I mean't I am a trained MOBILE storm spotter for the NWS in Desmoines/Quadcities, with a spotter number, etc. Also, I must reiterate the FACT that I have never used my storm spotter position to get out of a ticket etc. and no problem Bryce, I should have made myself more clear about what I was saying, this is a very important thread.

[Bryce Stone]

Yes, in central Oklahoma the NWS directly holds spotter classes. But after class is over, if you want to spot for anyone you're going to be spotting for your local EM. The NWS here has directly stated that they do not recruit spotters or manage them. Unless I'm just completely wrong, no one ever spots for the NWS. You spot for your EM, who relays the report to the NWS, but your activity is not sanctioned by the NWS.

[Craig Maire II]

Bryce wrote:
no one ever spots for the NWS

I spot for the NWS in Desmoines and the Quad Cities. I am a VOLUNTEER and am not paid. Not that any of this really matters because I have NEVER and will NEVER use my mobile storm spotter position to legally break any laws etc. I'm no more important than anyone else but when I say there is a tornado on the ground they listen to me and the sirens WILL sound.... Also, the MAJORITY of storm spotters both mobile and fixed are excellent people without whom the NWS could not possibly have a well functioning warning system for severe weather, the NWS would be thrown back into the "stone age" even with fancy technology such as doppler radar etc. and death rates from severe weather would probably show a dramatic increase. Many police officers have never attended a storm spotter training class in there life and I've seen plenty run for cover during severe weather instead of spotting for there community so no one is perfect. Just because you have a badge and a gun doesn't mean you know JACK about severe weather. 95% of Storm spotters and chasers should probably be given a "pat on the back" for the outstanding work they do every year FOR FREE and at there own expense, lets not forget this FACT. Not much you can get for free anymore......

[Jayson Prentice]

I say that was very well put Craig...

I know in northwest Iowa we have a pretty good ham radio spotting network. It is run through the local EM as he is usually the leader asking the spotter's where to move, etc. The local EM is looking at the radar screen as he is at the local radio station...

All of the reports that are recieved by the spotters are usually either quickly called or emailed up to the local NWS that is being affected. It works quite well in my opinion and as far as I know we have never had any problems up here...

[Tom Burgess]

Here in WV Spotters are run both by local EM and by the NWS. I have spotted since 1977 directly for the NWS. Only now have I begun working with the local group. The reason for this is this area em's just never cared before. Most countys still have nothing to do with Skywarn.

[Darin Brunin]

On those tornadoes in Kansas Thursday, there was some great footage sent to CNN. Unfortunatly, there was a lot of hooping and hollering from these particular chasers (like they were on Spring Break or something) as the the tornado was on the ground. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone know who they were? Shameful, I think.

First of all I am not 100% sure when I say this. It could have possibly been my video that was shown on CNN as I have found out that it was being distributed pretty widely. I still need to call and check for sure. I did not get a chance to view to see for sure though. In my video there was some emotion being shown when the tornado was on the ground. If it was mine I did not in any way get enjoyment out of people's lives being in danger and I apologize if it offended anyone. I was only in awe of a beautiful tornado that was in open coutry as far as I could tell. If anyone does get enjoyment out of peoples homes being ripped apart then they have no business chasing. I also have seen video numerous times that the media has purposely added audio to try and show a negative side that storm chasers have. In general, anyone in here says that they have not shown any emotion when viewing a tornado is full of it. Once, again I apologize if it was my video and it gave the wrong impression to people.

Darin

[Aric Cylkowski]

I've never been pulled over, especially while spotting/chasing, but I would never use my position as a spotter to get out of a ticket. Of course, I generally like to keep it at or close to the speed limit, just because chasing Michigan requires a bit more caution. However, I am human and I do make mistakes, so you may see me going 5 or close to 10 mph over the speed limit from time to time.

Its just my opinion so bear with me for a minute, but I think the problem with reckless driving may lie with some people not wanting to let the 'big one' go. They try to keep up or get into a better position, but the storm is moving so fast (and most cases not in alignment with the road network) that it still outpaces them. I've had to let a few good storms go when they outpaced me, but at that point its no longer about bagging a tornado, its about safety. Leaving the major road network or speeding excessively to keep up with it has bad news written all over it up where I'm at.

[Alex Lamers]

Craig, I am also a volunteer, but at the NWS Sullivan (most people call it Milwaukee). The program I think you are referring to is the STEP/SCEP program which offers high school and college students and opportunity to volunteer and/or get paid and then work their way up through the weather service. Depending on where I go to school, I hope to apply for one of the paid positions somewhere in Central Region...but we shall see.

Back to the topic at hand. First I have a question, didn't Charles Doswell write a good paper on the common courtesies of chasing or how to be a safe chaser? Perhaps everyone should read that, I read it once awhile back and remember it was pretty good.

I certainly hope that those few chasers that are speeding and wreaking havoc stop to think that they do not get an exception from the laws and regulations that everyone else has to abide by, just because they have a camera and a really fast car and because they think they are doing a service to people. If they are so considerate of other people's safety then they certainly wouldn't be pulling these antics as they could kill someone or themselves on the road. If they don't care about people's safety and just want a good shot of a storm, then it amazes me that they would try to pass themselves off as NWS personnel or defenders of public safety. The NWS hasn't and probably won't ever publicly endorse chasing so emergency personnel should probably know this.

Chasing can be frustrating, especially in a slow year, but come on...there comes a point when a chaser can get too reckless and showing no regard for law enforcement (who are just trying to do their job) is just one example.

I should hope this stops soon. :)

...Alex Lamers...

[Dennis Gulley]

:oops: Ive only been pulled over once for failing to pull over for a emergency vehicle responding to an accident. I did not see him until he passed me. I was not speeding. He was pretty ticked off but did not ticket me. He did ask me in an angry tone what all my equipment was for and I told him that I video storms. He accepted that although I think he thought that I was an ambulance chaser which I am not. He ran a check on my license and then his tone changed (clean record)and he told me to be careful out there.
In defense of those who pass other vehicles in towns etc. I find so annoying to get behind a local who thinks that the 35 mph speed limit sign really means 20 - 25. Its obvious that they are not in any hurry and dont mind holding everybody else up in the process. This is exceptionally irritating during a chase but for me is equally so even when not chasing.

Dennis

[Tony Cook]

I was on the Graham County storm Thursday from its inception. I would say that 90% of the chase vehicles I saw were behaving in a responsible manner. I will exceed the posted speed limit from time to time by up to 10 miles an hour, but that's about my limit.

I also saw the infamous "Tornado Intercept Vehicle" after the large wedge tornado dissipated. A new tornado had formed (the high-contrast white funnel with satellite tornado), and they were driving towards it. There was a guy stuck out the top of the vehicle as they went by. One could say that this was not responsible behavior, but it was definitely a sight I will not forget. They probably exceeded the speed limit by a good bit. I don't know, as I'm not even sure what the speed limit was on that road (we had just turned onto it). They left me in the dust. I was not going very fast at all at that time, though, as my car doesn't handle gravel roads at high speeds.

Tony

[Jay McCoy]

I also saw the infamous "Tornado Intercept Vehicle" after the large wedge tornado dissipated. A new tornado had formed (the high-contrast white funnel with satellite tornado), and they were driving towards it. There was a guy stuck out the top of the vehicle as they went by.

I saw that once before also earlier this year. He was standing in a hatch on top wearing goggles and holding a camera. I couldnt help but laugh. First thing I thought of was Steve Martin in "Sgt. Bilko" standing in the tank hatch saluting like a nerd. :lol:

[Doren Berge]

I also saw the infamous "Tornado Intercept Vehicle" after the large wedge tornado dissipated. .... There was a guy stuck out the top of the vehicle as they went by.

I saw that once before also earlier this year. He was standing in a hatch on top wearing goggles and holding a camera. .... :lol:

Ah!... "The Parade Float!"

[Bill Tabor]

:x The comments in that initial post (1st page) are completely heresay. We have no way of knowing who these individuals are, what they were really doing, and if they were truly 'chasers' and not locals going out to visit the storm. Possibly these could be local newbie chasers that are taking advantage of the nearby opportunity to check out a storm and they aren't familiar with any of the issues, procedures, safety aspects of chasing. Any comments about these people or policy is pure speculation. I think these Kansas law enforcement have a bad attitude and are trying to give the chase community a bum rap. They have a bad reputation for doing this and sometimes harrassing chasers and putting up road blocks for years now. I say if they see someone actually breaking the law then give the people a ticket or throw them in jail if they are speeding and truly endangering the public; however this background static about the whole chase community endangering the public is a load of crap! Don't take it! Example: Sunday I called in two warnings and was one of the first on the scene. Lives may have been saved. The people out on the road are as varied and diverse as anywhere. Everyone is an individual with their own personal training, responsibilities, and call on what decisions to make. Because of that everyone has to be judged individually. Unless someone is going to create a statistically significant scientific study then all this talk of chasers endangering the community is for all we know simply nonsense. I recommend everyone follow the rules, and chase the "right" way. Try and encourage others to do the same. But don't stand or fall for this type of ongoing slam, and negligent pictoral of the chase community.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Hmmm, they had concerns about chasers on that one? What about the damn one lane road construction IN THE RAIN that never stopped for the tornado warning? A strong VERY large rain wrapped tornado literally 2 miles down the road heading at this location and they are stopping traffic from getting out of the way! That concern must have never registered in the troubled police that day apparently. It was only tornado warned for what, an hour before that? Had a large tube on the ground for the last 20 minutes. If the police and safety people in that region have concerns I'm sorry but that should be at the TOP of their list. Maybe they were chit chatting with these "official spotters" or enjoying the tube too much. Evidently they couldn't just write the tickets for the broken laws or clear stupid construction areas. I guess I just really don't get the complaint. If someone is going to say that, thinking they can get out of a ticket I really don't see them caring what someone else says they should/shouldn't do. And like has been mentioned over and over....ticket people for breaking the laws! Jeez.

[Mike Peregrine]

I'm so tired of witch hunts ... it's so last year ... and the year before that ... and the year before that.

As we can see, it's evidently pretty ineffective against the people who really do pose a threat out there. I'm starting to throw all of these 'let's go after these guys' threads in the 'I'm not interested' category.

[Bill Tabor]

Originally posted by Mike Hollingshead
Hmmm, they had concerns about chasers on that one? What about the damn one lane road construction IN THE RAIN that never stopped for the tornado warning? A strong VERY large rain wrapped tornado literally 2 miles down the road heading at this location and they are stopping traffic from getting out of the way!

I think you have a valid question here Mike. This construction procedure may be dangerous and may not be designed to take such things as severe weather into accounty. I've heard there is a lot of construction going on in KS lately. Maybe they need to make a policy / procedure change on how to open roads during a tornado warning or something.

You should probably give a call to the highway department and let them know the situation. Well,...except for the fact that if you were chasing then you might be subject to the KS patrol witch hunt that is supposedly going on. How does that go? "Let's see...witches float. So, if we throw her in some water and she drowns then we know she's not a witch but if she floats we know she is and we can torch her at the stake". Kind of a Monty Python mentality.