I owe some people a drink!

[David Drummond]

Tim V. especially and all those who had a hand in this. After all the armchair criticizing I have done in the past about ST, I have to state I am impressed and floored! /bow to those who hand a hand in this and apologies from me where needed.

[Robert Dewey]

I agree... The changes are very much appreciated. I am also glad that there wasn't any further downtime - I was going through withdrawals :lol:

[David Drummond]

I agree... The changes are very much appreciated. I am also glad that there wasn't any further downtime - I was going through withdrawals :lol:

He must have been working on this a while, I can't see him getting all that done in a few hours...that was a LOT of work. I know from experience.

[Todd Rittinger]

I'm with Rob and David; well done Tim and Mod Team! I'm looking forward to reducing my ratio!

Be well, TR

[nickgrillo]

I definitely owe Tim two thumbs up for his accomplishments...

When the board was down earlier this afternoon, I had this feeling that something new was gonna take place. I had no idea it was gonna be this big of a change, but I really am liking it. I'd bet that this is the best thing to ever happen to the board, and all I have to say is, you have done one AWESOME job...

[Sheila_Ward]

Agreed! Thanks for the hard work. I look forward to the fresh start.

[Joe Guerra]

Hear hear, I'm very impressed with the changes Tim and the staff has made :D

[Bill Hamilton]

Great job! It will take a bit to get used to but I like the layout and hope it solves a few problem.
It does make one really look into the forum and topics.

[Mike Peregrine]

The clean slate is very much appreciated - thanks for all the hard work!

[Jay McCoy]

wow what a change..

JUst this morning i posted a comment that we need to get back to wx topics for chasers and not post anything about politics or religeon and wham its there..

Thanks Tim for bringing some credibility back to ST..

[Justin Teague]

Great job! I appreciate the work that has been done to maintain the quality of ST.

[Bobby Eddins]

Ahh!!
Fresh Air!!

[Scott Olson]

Thanks for all the hard work helping to get ST back on track Tim!

-Scott.

[Robert Edmonds]

I agree, good job. Very pleased.

[Kurt Hulst]

Seeing this I think I will keep coming back as I was getting close to not even coming any more. I was slowly weening my self off but now im back to see how things flow. I believe that this fresh slate will help bring our credibility back to full statues. And hopefully quiet some bikering.

Good Job

[Peter Wharton]

Thanks very much for the clean slate and fresh approach - as an overseas member, with my chasing restricted to one journey a year to the States, this forum is a real connection to the rest of the community and an invaluable source of learning. Good luck with the new format and rules! :D Cheers, Peter

[David Wolfson]

I share in the above sentiments expressed. Change is good in and of itself, and I much appreciate all the work Tim and the mods are putting into this.

[Doren Berge]

Bravo! Very well done! And much appreciated!

db

[Morgan Palmer]

As one of the mods, I want to express my appreciation for all the brain power folks have used over the past few weeks regarding the future of Stormtrack. It is an institution, and I am looking forward to the future.

It's been a tough couple of weeks for all of us, but I guess we are proof of the adage that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Thanks and have fun!
MP

[Khristian Snyder]

The new board is awesome. I cant even imagen the work that went into it. Thankyou!!! :D

[David Drummond]

I just wanted to reiterate that after all I posted yesterday about the private area, obviously I WAS COMPLETELY WRONG and again I apologize for any feathers that are still ruffled. I get pretty darn emotional about storm chasing and that yesterday was just a by product of it. Just shows how important it is to me.

I am eating some fat crow right now but seeing the results here today, it's gonna taste good. :lol:

[Patrick Ware]

Very Nice Tim. :D

[Bob Schafer]

I suppose in some twisted sort of way (pun intended), we should thank Mick. LOL!

I'm sure I'm going to enjoy this forum much more from here on. Your hard work is very much appreciated, Tim.

Bob

[Chris Nuttall]

I'd bet that this is the best thing to ever happen to the board, and all I have to say is, you have done one AWESOME job...

Agreed, Nick. But I think the best thing that has happened to this board was for it to get started in the first place.

It's always good to do a little "house cleaning" every now and then. This community is unique in the common interests that keep it together and the social difficulties that is faces, yet the forum can still maintain itself thanks to the dedication of quite a few people.

I think this renovation is the best thing to come out of the 2005 season....'cause it sure wasn't the storms! :lol:

[Tim Vasquez]

Thanks for the comments (and that on behalf of the moderators and other folks who helped with this).

There are undoubtedly going to be some people that are not happy with the changes... certainly the people who ran up high ratios on "Everything Else" (EE). However an EE change was in the works pretty early on and we had received a lot of complaints about the situation.

Tim

[Rob_Davis]

Wow! I find absolutely NOTHING to complain about here! This is greatness, Tim! Many, many thanks to you and all who played a hand in the housecleaning. And a very special thanks to those in the former hidden forum for working towards compromise. That is to be highly respected.

I know that in the last couple of days, there have been some feathers ruffled and some toes stepped upon all around. I am as guilty as the next guy. But I agree that this is a fresh start for all of us, and I intend to treat is as such.

Thanks again!

[David Schuttler]

Thanks for the comments (and that on behalf of the moderators and other folks who helped with this).

There are undoubtedly going to be some people that are not happy with the changes... certainly the people who ran up high ratios on "Everything Else" (EE). However an EE change was in the works pretty early on and we had received a lot of complaints about the situation.

Tim

Nice change!! I hope everyone grows to appreciate it.

On the EE thing , Wow I was suprised to find myself as high as 40%
I bet there is even more out there that didn't relize what their % actually was and even more shocked to see it was higher than they thought. like me

[Jay Cazel]

I like the new look Tim...Very streamlined.... 8)

Again Thanks Tim!!!!......Change is good...

[Gaetan Cormier]

Congrats to the ST team!

This is great and I hope that it will stay like this for a long time.

Cheers!

[Dan Cook]

Great job. :)

[Anthony Silver]

Thanks for the much needed changes...looks excellent 8) . I'm sure most of us will appreciate the hard work that went into the reconstruction. Two thumbs up!

[Robert Dewey]

Thanks for the comments (and that on behalf of the moderators and other folks who helped with this).

There are undoubtedly going to be some people that are not happy with the changes... certainly the people who ran up high ratios on "Everything Else" (EE). However an EE change was in the works pretty early on and we had received a lot of complaints about the situation.

Tim

I agree about the EE section. I was all for it, but I was against the religion/political debates (I remember suggesting that people use headers like "political" and "religion", much like the Target Area) - though I did post in some of the political threads, I won't miss them at all. Removing those types of posts will pretty much remove the tension and flame wars that were continuing to grow...

[Mike Hollingshead]

I'd only suggest allowing storm enthusiasts, spotters, etc to continue to be a part of this. I don't get what keeping them out solves and I'm sure there are many who share the same love for storms that would have worthwhile input. If it is still for met folks I cannot see how it is not for those who just simply do not go driving after storms. I'm sorry but I've always seen it for those that love storms. Sorry to not be waving the same flag everyone else is here. It is really cool it is not going to be segregated, but I'd suggest putting some thought into who is and who is not allowed access to STORMtrack. I can hear some minds now, "can you believe this guy". Well, I just remember when I was not a chaser. Pretty much the same as it is now. I enjoy talking to anyone who is interested in storms.

[Douglas Mitchell]

I'm going to agree with H here, I think that you can't discriminate because the title of "chaser" is speculative. Allow them back in, and then have the mods be a little less fearful of cleaning up the fluff. The new rules are a start, but I disagree with some sort of chasing background requirement.

[Bryce Stone]

I am very, very impressed by the striking new changes to the boards. I haven't a single complaint, and I can't wait to see how the new forums work out during the 2006 chase season.

I was bumping 60%, by the way, in EE. My post count was 59 point something. I was the last person before 60% . . . lol. I didn't realize I'd been posting there that much.

Anyway, I really like the new look. Great job!

[Rob_Davis]

I wasn't going to say anything since I've pretty well been pushing my luck for the last two days as it is. But I will go on record as saying that I have to agree with Mike H's suggestion. There are some good people here -- including myself -- who would have never been accepted under the new criteria. This board is the very best resource not only for chasers, but those who seriously want to be chasers. And while nobody wants to see an overwhelming influx of people into the hobby, I would hate to see those good people who are serious about joining the ranks get denied when they're trying to do the right thing.

/last comment on the subject

[Mikey Gribble]

I like the new setup. For Tim and all the mods, well done. I think you handled a tough situation as well as it could be handled. I would have to agree with Mike H on the membership issue though. Some people are just as passionate about weather as chasers, but for one reason or another don't chase. I think they have something to contribute and should be eligible for membership.

[Bob Schafer]

I somewhat agree with you on principle, H, but I don't think you're catching the flavor quite right.

I think the idea is to prevent this scenario:

Chaser makes a post about an upcoming chase a couple days out. Chaser welcomes informed and educated feedback from his/her peers about the setup/models, etc. Instead, 5 clueless people who've never chased more than twice attack chaser in an attempt to make themselves appear "important".

Then, the thread goes off on a tangent in some obscure direction.

I think that's what we're trying to eliminate with the new approach. If there's a better way, I'm 100% for it. We're all pretty much of the same mindset. The challenge is difficult, the solutions elusive, but I think we've taken a giant step in the right direction.

Bob

[Rob_Davis]

I wasn't going to say anything since I've pretty well been pushing my luck for the last two days as it is. Plus, I am so overwhelmed with delight over the board changes that I too don't want to get started with any negativity. But I will go on record as saying that I have to agree with Mike H's suggestion. There are some good people here -- including myself -- who would have never been accepted under the new criteria. This board is the very best resource not only for chasers, but those who seriously want to be chasers. I'm all for selectivity. Nobody wants to see an overwhelming influx of people either onto the board or into the hobby. But I would hate to see those good people who are serious about joining the ranks get denied when they're trying to do the right thing.

/last comment on the subject

[Mikey Gribble]

[quote]I like the new setup. For Tim and all the mods, well done. I think you handled a tough situation as well as it could be handled. I would have to agree with Mike H on the membership issue though. Some people are just as passionate about weather as chasers, but for one reason or another don't chase. I think they have something to contribute and should be eligible for membership. I know you have to draw the line somewhere though, so I am fine with it regardless of what happens on the membership issue.

[Douglas Mitchell]

I think the idea is to prevent this scenario:

Chaser makes a post about an upcoming chase a couple days out. Chaser welcomes informed and educated feedback from his/her peers about the setup/models, etc. Instead, 5 clueless people who've never chased more than twice attack chaser in an attempt to make themselves appear "important".

Then, the thread goes off on a tangent in some obscure direction

Bob

I think it should be the mod's discretion in that situation to delete those posts and possible suspension/ban. You can't discriminate against all enthustiasts because of a few bad apples. And there's no saying that all "chasers" are somehow above attacking others.

[Bob Schafer]

BTW, Tim asked that we just give this all a time out for awhile. I just violated that, and I feel bad about it. I'm not trying to suppress anyone from arguing with what I've just said, but I vow that you won't hear another peep from me on this subject for at least a week.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Chaser makes a post about an upcoming chase a couple days out. Chaser welcomes informed and educated feedback from his/her peers about the setup/models, etc. Instead, 5 clueless people who've never chased more than twice attack chaser in an attempt to make themselves appear "important".

Chaser should then get a backbone and/or contact a mod, because a PERSON did such a thing. Judging what is and what isn't a chaser will be a hard enough thing to do. Differing between an attack and a disagreement on here is obviously as hard or harder.

I have a newsflash, the majority of these arguements/"attacks" in TA were chasers or mets(myself probably included in a few). The non-chaser, weather person bothers to come in and post targetting thoughts?

What is honestly so threatening about people who do not drive after storms, but love them? What are you going to lose in your daily trips to the forum when "they" are here enjoying storm topics too?

It seems to me this need to fix issues of st is half being tossed on the backs of most who have caused zero distress.

[Bill Hark]

Thanks to Tim and all the mods who helped give Stormtrack the new look. I am sure it was a lot of work.
I am looking forward to participating in the new and improved Stormtrack, the main resource for chasers.

Bill Hark

[Mike Hollingshead]

BTW, Tim asked that we just give this all a time out for awhile. I just violated that, and I feel bad about it. I'm not trying to suppress anyone from arguing with what I've just said, but I vow that you won't hear another peep from me on this subject for at least a week.

Tim also wants what is best for this forum. Talk is good for things I think.

[nickgrillo]

I'd have to say that nearly (if not all...) the times I got attacked on ST or was given trouble from others members here, were from non-chasers.

I see nothing wrong with non-chasers wanting to read all the stormtalk on ST, but that is why we have several of the forums public, so people can readily view them.

[Mike Hollingshead]

I'd have to say that nearly (if not all...) the times I got attacked on ST or was given trouble from others members here, were from non-chasers.

Name just one.

[Jeff Snyder]

I'd have to say that nearly (if not all...) the times I got attacked on ST or was given trouble from others members here, were from non-chasers.

Name just one.

Seriously, Mike... I thought this was something we were trying to get away from with the old Stormtrack. It seems that you want to entice an argument... If you don't want to believe him, then fine. Just either take it to PM or something. Let's start this off on a good foot by avoiding what appears to me to be these petty arguments. Obviously, discussion regarding the role of non-chasers on Stormtrack is fine, but this doesn't appear to be heading that way.

[Simon Brewer]

I'm sorry, but I know the rules said there is no such thing as free speech in the Stormtrack Forum, but isn't that an oxymoron. Anyways, I'm pretty much don't want to take sides or anything, but I'll have to agree with Mike on the point of the discussion, but most other changes look good.
I've got to go out on a limb and defend all the NON-Chasers that just plain-out love severe weather or weather for that matter. I haven't been "attacked" recently, but I can remeber quite a few times in the past where I was attacked, not by non-chasers, but by people who called themselves chasers, many of them are some of the more frequent posters on ST. Now since non-chasers are excluded we need to develop a formal definition of a stormchaser and start selling stormchaser licenses.

Simon

[Tim Vasquez]

We'll probably be amenable to opening up the board a little more once we figure out how the current policies are working out... some of this will involve defining potential problems a bit better (if there are any).

Tim

[Robert Dewey]

I agree with Mike H., but I think Tim's approach is best for right now. We should probably focus on getting all of the "bugs" sorted out (i.e. one step at a time) before moving on to the application process.

[Scott Blair]

I don’t see anything wrong with non-chasers observing in Stormtrack but I have a problem with Stormtrack catering to non-chasers. The ST idea is simple... serve chasers. That’s how it was years ago and I don’t see any reason to deviate or compromise any other way.

I remember when I was an inexperienced chaser at a very young age. There were some excellent discussions on some weather related forums. I knew I could participate, but the quality I could provide at the time would have been insignificant and a distraction to those more experienced if I would have chosen to post. Instead, I observed and learned from others. My belief: the majority of non-chasers, spotters, and enthusiasts do not provide a substantial level of quality and/or substance when it comes to chase discussions and chase topics. Contemplate the type of contributors who made the ST magazine what it was.

I commend MikeH for always looking after the little guy, but quite frankly disagree in this case. If the little guy has nothing significant to contribute that’s chase related, please move on.

Scott Blair
http://www.targetarea.net

[Mike Hollingshead]

Seriously, Mike... I thought this was something we were trying to get away from with the old Stormtrack. It seems that you want to entice an argument... If you don't want to believe him, then fine. Just either take it to PM or something.

It wasn't about enticing an arguement. It was called a disagreement. I said THREE whole words and now I'm part of what we were trying to get away from? You know I think that is exactly right. See ya.

[jaybarnsmith]

I don’t see anything wrong with non-chasers observing in Stormtrack but I have a problem with Stormtrack catering to non-chasers. The ST idea is simple... serve chasers. That’s how it was years ago and I don’t see any reason to deviate or compromise any other way.

I remember when I was an inexperienced chaser at a very young age. There were some excellent discussions on some weather related forums. I knew I could participate, but the quality I could provide at the time would have been insignificant and a distraction to those more experienced if I would have chosen to post. Instead, I observed and learned from others. My belief: the majority of non-chasers, spotters, and enthusiasts do not provide a substantial level of quality and/or substance when it comes to chase discussions and chase topics. Contemplate the type of contributors who made the ST magazine what it was.

Totally agreed...

The fact of the matter is, there are plenty of "weather weenie" type forums/message boards out there, and there is too many to even count. Stormtrack is for actual chasers/meteorologists, and anybody who signed up to ST just to lurk or post to political debates is ridiculous (which no longer will happen...) and as you pointed out, most of these people have very little knowledge (although, if they are interested in WX, I am sure it will grow) and will probably become more of a distraction then help.

Even when newbies try to contribute to the TA sometimes, it is more harm then good (and often causes problems, and even fights...).

Thats so egotistic its not even funny. I happen to agree with Mike H. here that the restrictions on who can join are a bit too much. I know I certainly won't be here with the restrictions inplace now if I hadn't already joined.

Take the Garry Wellman character who posted before me. Hes a good candidate for being banned because of his completely worthless post. Of course new restrictions on joining aren't going to stop people like him, he'll just bull**** his way back in. You end up stopping the legit people who would make valueable posts.

I frequent a lot of forums on the internet. They all allow open membership, as in anyone can register and post. They don't seem to have problems with new people insulting them, or bringing up heavily political topics. Perhaps you guys are too sheltered and can't handle someone disagreeing with you. Or perhaps you are too worried about trying to look good so you can sell as many dvds/whatever for your business as possible that you feel everyone is 'slurring' your good image by disagreeing with you in a public place. Get over yourselves and realize that no one in the real world gives a crap how many tornadoes you saw this year or for how long you claim you have been chasing.

As for new people getting in the way, ever thought to just *gasp* not read there posts if you are in a hurry? Or you know you might try posting something helpful so that they can learn and not get in the way.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the look of the improved Stormtrack. I also have high hopes that it will work out well. But being realistic I doubt its going to change anything if the attitude of the people who post here the most doesn't change.

[Sarah Berling]

Maybe we should just drop this for a little while...Tim said that he doesn't want any suggestions as to how to improve StormTrack just now, as he's kind of worn out from reformatting the site. So let's just leave the subject alone for a bit and work from there. Sound good?

Sarah

[Scott Blair]

I happen to agree with Mike H. here that the restrictions on who can join are a bit too much. I know I certainly won't be here with the restrictions inplace now if I hadn't already joined.

The new restrictions are a bit too much? LOL! The overall goal of the simple restrictions is to serve chasers, so if that’s too much I’m sorry. Perhaps I’ll agree with you and say you might not be here if you joined at a later date.


Perhaps you guys are too sheltered and can't handle someone disagreeing with you. Or perhaps you are too worried about trying to look good so you can sell as many dvds/whatever for your business as possible that you feel everyone is 'slurring' your good image by disagreeing with you in a public place. Get over yourselves and realize that no one in the real world gives a crap how many tornadoes you saw this year or for how long you claim you have been chasing.

Wow, that's an interesting statement! May I inquire to what brought up the subject of selling dvd’s, tornadoes observed in a year, and the length of chasing career? I certainly don’t see how any of that pertains to a discussion related to the future of ST, but please correct me if I’m wrong. LOL, and I love the good image thing! If I really cared what people like you thought about me, I would never publicly post strong opinions like my previous post. Love me or hate me, but either way my goal still remains to strive for high quality discussions that are geared towards chasers on this forum.


As for new people getting in the way, ever thought to just *gasp* not read there posts if you are in a hurry? Or you know you might try posting something helpful so that they can learn and not get in the way.


As for new people getting in the way, have they ever thought to just *gasp* observe others posts so they can learn and not get in the way? And you're right; my time is valuable to me. ATTM, I don't have all day to sit at my computer and filter through garbage posts. But it's noteworthy I find the most noise from non-chasers on this forum and good quality from the active chasers.

Thanks Tim for the changes!

Scott Blair
http://www.targetarea.net

[Scott Olson]

Seems to me that Tim has done alot of work to re-organize the website and to make changes to the benefit of the community. If Tim thinks that StormTrack should just be for active chaser or mets and not just storm ethausists then thats it. Afterall, he has done a great degree of work to accomodate a lot of very upset people. These changes aren't always going to be popular but he's got my support.

-Scott Olson

[Glen Romine]

I'll add my commendation to Tim and the moderators for stepping up the entrance and operational requirements of this board - and hope for stricter enforment as well. I'm largely in solidarity with Scott Blair on the changes - I agree this board should serve chasers first - and if there is a place for severe weather enthusiasts to participate as well, that's great, but I don't agree with serving the weather enthusiast on equal ground. While there may be some visitors here that have lots of free time to sift through the muck (or an inability to differentiate the two) - I can't say that I'm one of them. A number of individuals have given a lot of time and effort to try and make this a place of useful and accurate information - but there is only some much you can ask of them before those in the want must be asked to do a little work on their own. Having them do that before coming to this board I don't think is too much to ask. I'd say if you just enjoy seeing pictures of severe weather - but don't have an interest in chasing - then there are other boards out there that will better serve your needs, or if not, then one should be made. I guess since I'm not trying to sell images or DVDs, I'm just not sympathetic to helping provide a home on the web for the severe wx enthusiast. Since Stormtrack is rooted in serving chasers, not enthusiasts, it seems that chaser's interests should be served first.

As far as Mike H.'s position - I'm really confused, since after leading a campaign to destroy the private group, which contributed to the enforcement of these changes on the main boards, it appears you now are taking the position that you don't want these changes that you just helped implement. I guess it will be impossible to make everyone happy no matter what actions are taken. But when the dust settles, I hope this place remains somewhere that I'll still enjoy coming to.

Thanks again Tim and moderators.

Glen

[Jonathan Merage]

Along with many other "wx. weenies", chasers (of storms OR tornadoes :lol:), and members of the academia who share their opinions & ideas with this community, I regularly visit ST & browse through its forums. Since it's beginning, ST has been one of my most valued chaser Web resources (from getting great info, sharing informed opinions, submitting some truly amazing reports & even shopping around!

Over the past several months, we've all noticed a disturbing trend in the quality of posts (their relevance, respectfulness, so on...). I, for one, was getting frustrated by the frequency of idle chatter & pointless bickering that was getting out of hand in far too many of the forums. In light of this, it's awesome to see Tim V. & the Mods taking the initiative and their own time in reorganizing Stormtrack to really improve the site & hopefully (I'm sure) restore the composure and self-respect that defined ST! I certainly look foward to having an even MORE informative & fun ST, and know that whatever the end design, Tim V. & our Mods are doing the best they can to make it all work!
Way to Go, Guys!!

[Glenn Dixon]

I'll toss out my two cents and add my thanks to Tim for giving this whole thing a good reboot. Well done!

[Todd Rittinger]

I wanted to post these ideas/thoughts while they're fresh in my mind. I also wish to echo some statements already made and respect Tim's wishes that we "let the dust settle" a wee bit before forging ahead, so this is all from me on the topic for now. These are just random thoughts, no rhyme or reason:

1) Mike H. has hit a valid point on the admittance criteria IMHO. I can relate as I would be one of the folks who would have a tough time getting in. Tim has already indicated leaway room here in the future, so I will leave this be 'cept for thoughts expressed in #5.
2) Tim has a vision that he is carrying on: StormTrack is for chasers. Deviations from this change ST's mission and focus and that can be a bad thing....we've all seen what even a little drifting from the focus can do.
3) Never fear a larger Mod team. Modding a board can be a huge, time consuming and thankless endeavour. (for Tim as the Admin it is times 10). Based on posts I've read over the year and bit I've been privileged to be here, it is obvious that there are a good many folks who would/could be up to the task. Many hands make light work.
4) Mod part two: tighter control will go a long way. And with tighter control, always provide a avenue for dispute resolution. (possibly a return to the warn system?)
5) Entrance criteria: I'm involved with a very busy board that provides support for computer users, but has a strong focus on Crapware removal. No one is allowed to help others with Crapware removal until they have passed a series of tests. The purpose of the testing is to expand knowledge, get familiar with the repair tools and to practice in interaction with others in a forum setting. Not apples to apples by any means, but could ST implement a variation of this type of thing?
6) ST mission part two: Glen Romine makes an interesting point about the distinctions between the chaser and the enthusiast. Couple with #5, would ST consider either a separate forum or separate (sister) board for the enthusiast and armchair chaser? This could also serve as a stepping stone to admittance to the main board.
7) A plea: to experienced chasers, mets, mets to be, and the folks with lots 'o knowledge...please keep contributing to ST where you can. Your knowledge and insights are invaluable to the chasing community and greatly appreciated by those of us who are working hard to learn the ins and outs of both weather and chasing. Additionally, your experiences and tutalidge will go a long way in the promotion and education of chasing safety.

Back to regular scheduled programming...

Be well, TR

[Chris DeRosier]

My only hope is that Stormtrack.org will still be a place that I, as a lifetime weather nut and "armchair chaser" for the most part, can still come visit and occasionally post (it's OK that I don't post in the forecast chase area, but I did feel a little pang last week when I had a tornado warned cell right over my house and couldn't share!). I like to read and learn a lot from you folks.

I do have another weather board that I started to frequent this year and post to it, and there is a lot of focus in the northern Plains area where I am. But I still love to come visit Stormtrack daily!

[Tim Vasquez]

Thank you all for not feeding the troll. The mods have quickly dealt with the situation.

Tim

[Mike Johnson]

Excellent ST site revision and modified rules.

Mike

[J.B. Dixon]

This has been a discussion that I think a lot of us have had of the past year, as we've seen such a big influx of new members as interest in the chasing realm has increased. It really is a fine line that the administrators have to walk with this site. I would not like to be in the position of who makes the determination of who is worthy of being a member with full posting priveledges, and who is not. But, to keep the integrity of the site, I think the majority of us feel that someone has to.

Thanks to all of the devoted people who make this site what it is. What an invaluable resource for chasers. I would hate to see it ever go.

Now I'll try not to get booted for inactivity through all of this severe wx down time!

[Glen Romine]

The ONLY people whom have made valuable posts to this board are actual chasers or meteorologists (or people with a significant knowledge in meteorology), and I have seen WAY more problems from non-chasers then anybody else on this forum (the old forums).


I totally disagree with you there Nick - there are many quality contributors outside of the meteorologists and hard core chasers hear, and there are also chasers and meteorologists here that post as poor a quality material as anyone.

I think a better goal is simply to refine what content should be posted here - and have that content favor the chasers rather than the weather enthusiasts. If they are here - and have something positive to contribute to that, great! But, I don't think the board should encourage participation from individuals who consistently don't contribute toward chasing knowledge. If some members currently aren't capable of doing that, then if they really like being here I hope they will find the drive to bring themselves up to speed.

Glen

[Chris DeRosier]

StormTrack is dedicated to STORM CHASERS and not to people whom sit out their windows and look at clouds (there are many valuable and good forums such a Wright Weather for enthusiasts), but ST is rather a professional group, that is dedicated to true chasers and meteorologists. The ONLY people whom have made valuable posts to this board are actual chasers or meteorologists (or people with a significant knowledge in meteorology), and I have seen WAY more problems from non-chasers then anybody else on this forum (the old forums).


You don't know how badly this makes me feel- because I guess I fall into this category.

[Shane Adams]

disregard

[Shane Adams]

disregard

[Shane Adams]

disregard

[Bill Tabor]

I'll have to throw my hat in the ring here in favor of a targeted chaser audience. This goes all the way back to the foundations of what the StormTrack periodical was all about. It was a resource 'by chasers, for chasers' with low signal to noise ratio. I believe Tim and the moderators are trying to stay true to the 'roots' of Stormtrack by these changes and restrictions and I support them and applaud them!

I think there is something to be said as mentioned in the 'changes' section that the Maproom can not be viewed by guests preventing the general public, media, yahoo's etc from accessing our forecasts and contributing to more congestion on the roads, traffic dangers, and dangers to the untrained public in general. This may in some small way assist in preventing chasing from being banned or legislated as well.

Now with all that said, I do still have a kind ear for the weather enthusiast - that is if they are interested in chasing. I have no problem with Stormtrack in addition to the above also being a learning or gathering site for weather enthusiasts with aspirations for chasing, or newbie chasers. I'd vote for a separate area available for them to learn in and more experienced chasers can join in and contribute resources for them to learn or conversations for them to take part in. I think future discussions / threads can be centered around how to make Stormtrack a proper resource for all levels of "storm chasers".

[Bill Tabor]

And some chasers too. I contribute significant topics but they aren't tailor-made for the meteorologist. I don't talk in numbers and forumlas, I talk in locations, events, and what I saw. Not being able to "hang" in a meteorlogical discussion doesn't mean you can contribute greatly to chase-related conversations....contrary to common perception. That's exactly why I dumped Core.


Agreed! And that's exactly the point as this is a CHASER forum. We want to talk about chasing, chases, chaser gear, chaser experiences, etc. You don't have to be a met, degreed, or have equipment to chase, but you do need to be a chaser and with some chase experience to discuss and contribute.

Like I said previously I will support the enthusiast and newbie chasers but only if they are REALLY chasers or attempting to become chasers. If you are going to support this group, then make a separate section, separate privileges, and some fundamental entrance requirements for these folks plz.

[David Wolfson]

I'm reading that continuing a measured discussion about who is a chaser and who ST should serve is ok here (and it gets me a few posts closer to the time I can put my foot up in the lounge now and then :wink: ).

I tend to agree with Nick. This should be a place for meteorologists or non-intro met students and remarkable weather chasers.

There are plenty of pros including those who're involved with severe weather forecasting, value-added services, etc., who may not be themselved involved with or interested in stormchasing themselves. I for sure would like to see those people on ST, so tickets should be pretty liberal for pros IMO.

The other category is the more complex discussion. I suggest a term other than "severe" because that term has a rather specific operational definition. Lightning chasers in the SW for example are not really severe weather chasers but they are stormchasers. The same goes for snowstorm freaks -- God help 'em :) ! What they have in common is they travel specifically to observe, record, and/or photograph remarkable weather. Whether the line should be set at tropospheric weather, e.g. exclude auroral phenomena, is a discussion point. I personally think ST should be limited to tropospheric weather.

Most of the time stormchasers aren't chasing, needless to say given all that's gone on, so most of the time stormchasers are in fact "armchair" chasers. Hopefully the current structure accomodates the twitches, tics, and SDS of all the true-blue stormchasers when they're not chasing without dumbing-down or cluttering up active or rapid-fire threads. But that's another topic for later....

[bill mudd]

well this is an interesting thread -
ok the old TARGET area seemed like the place for mets and hard core chasers - and that was getting al il loose at times granted - but the other areas of the FORUM where you could share ideas, equipment discussions, without having to be a met was pretty cool (im glad thats the same)
anyway Ive learned alot here in and I am thankful to all that contribute there time and energies to make this a great sharing place - without every ones contributions I would have never had some of the great contacts and experiences that Ive had this year!
Thanks!
Bill Mudd

[Robert Dewey]

I suggest a term other than "severe" because that term has a rather specific operational definition. Lightning chasers in the SW for example are not really severe weather chasers but they are stormchasers. The same goes for snowstorm freaks -- God help 'em :) ! What they have in common is they travel specifically to observe, record, and/or photograph remarkable weather. Whether the line should be set at tropospheric weather, e.g. exclude auroral phenomena, is a discussion point. I personally think ST should be limited to tropospheric weather.

Whether you're chasing lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes, snowstorms, or any other atmospheric phenomenon, it's usually welcome on ST. For instance, some people post their their forecasts for monsoon based convection, and then post their chase reports... As for other types of atmospheric phenomenon, like snowstorms...Usually posting in the "Weather Lab" (previously Weather and Chasing) will usually suffice... But, I think the Target Area is specifically for convective thunderstorms, rather than other forms of weather...

[David Wolfson]

Yes, Robert, it has. My reading of the new membership requirements and TOS suggests that a more limited scope is being considered.

[David Drummond]

Did we lose the ability to edit posts?

For some weird reason, we did... Not sure what is wrong...

Thing it's just on this area, I notice you could still edit in some of the others.

[Dan Robinson]

[quote]The other category is the more complex discussion. I suggest a term other than "severe" because that term has a rather specific operational definition. Lightning chasers in the SW for example are not really severe weather chasers but they are stormchasers. The same goes for snowstorm freaks -- God help 'em :) ! What they have in common is they travel specifically to observe, record, and/or photograph remarkable weather. Whether the line should be set at tropospheric weather, e.g. exclude auroral phenomena, is a discussion point. I personally think ST should be limited to tropospheric weather./quote]

This is something I was pondering too. I posted a question along those lines here:

http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?...?t=7776&start=0 (http://stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7776&start=0)

[Tim Vasquez]

We'll fix the editing permissions bug.

As far as the other topic, Stormtrack has reasserted its role for active storm chasers, but I've noticed that the status of non-chasers is not very clear. We are not going to dip a strainer into the userlist to weed out non-chasers based on credentials. That will be done on new applications (and to what extent is still in debate). But as long as a person is a currently a member here, abides by the rules, and respects the slant of the board, they're welcome and I think they will still learn a lot while bringing some fresh perspective to the weather discussions.

Tim

[Shane Adams]

Thanks for re-setting the "edit" feature Tim.

[Rob_Davis]

*moved to new topic*

[Mike Parker]

I would also like to thank Tim and the mods for the hard work and obvious thought that went into the restructuring of ST. IMO what Tim wants to happen here is real simple, return to a setting that brings respect back to the forum. Respect of one another as not only storm chasers but as human beings. It is no secret that there was a lot of sarcasm, antagonism and personal shots in some of the discussions. That is undoubtedly what was driving some members away. I believe that a clean slate is exactly what was needed. We now have an opportunity to forget about the problems of x1 and concentrate on making x2 a site that is free of selfish pettiness and full of useful and insightful discussions about the subjects of weather and chasing. That is in fact what drew us all here to begin with, the love of weather and the art of chasing. I for one am excited about the future of ST and appreciate the ability to be apart of it.

[David Draun]

Wow! Great changes! The leadership of this forum is shining brightly. 8) 8)
A big military SA-LUTE to Tim and the mods!

...my EE post count is only 40% I'm surprised, I thought it was much higher. :shock:

[Bryce Stone]

I cannot understand why there is even a debate here. Stormtrack is for storm chasers. What's there to debate about that statement? The admissions standard for new members simply asks that new members be at the least an active chaser (or that they have been an active chaser).

I'm not seeing the problem with asking that new members to a storm chasing forum be storm chasers.

[Rob_Davis]

I cannot understand why there is even a debate here. Stormtrack is for storm chasers. What's there to debate about that statement?
I don't think there is such a debate. It appears to me that the only real debate here is the definition of "chaser."

While it seems agreed upon that "chaser" doesn't include weather enthusiasts in general, there is some disagreement upon at what point one becomes "a chaser."

We have student drivers who are allowed to drive before they are licensed "drivers."

We have medical students who are allowed to perform surgery before they are licensed "physicians."

We have met students who are allowed to forecast and research before they are actually "meteorologists."

It just seems that indicates that it is reasonable for us to judge people to be seriously on their way to becoming a "chaser" at some point and let them get their feet wet. I am all for maintaining quality and a tolerable s/n ratio. And if newbies start wading into matters that are out of their league, then that can be dealt with quite easily. But again, it is just the normal course of any endeavor to allow people an entry path into professionalism.

[Jay McCoy]

This is an easy one

Chaser= Somebody who actively seeks out severe weather in a vehicle for observation or photography and videography as a hobby or professionally.

I.E.*** Do you drive 200 miles to see a cloud?? A person who sits by a PC and watches radar or looks out the window to see a storm is NOT a chaser. The word is "chaser" which means to chase after the storm!!

[Rob_Davis]

Originally posted by Jay McCoy
This is an easy one

Chaser= Somebody who actively seeks out severe weather in a vehicle for observation or photography and videography as a hobby or professionally.
Problem is, that definition would include Spotters too. There is a movement here to exclude spotters.

[Jay McCoy]

Originally posted by Rob_Davis+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob_Davis)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Jay McCoy
This is an easy one

Chaser= Somebody who actively seeks out severe weather in a vehicle for observation or photography and videography as a hobby or professionally.
Problem is, that definition would include Spotters too. There is a movement here to exclude spotters.[/b]

As somebody who is both I can say there is a world of difference between chasers and spotters. I spot when needed to for my community but I prefer to chase.

Chasers do it as a hobby for fun or research and their main goal is video or photography and will travle 100's and even 1000's of miles to see it. Chasers forumlate their own target area and forecast and make the desicion of what to chase and where.

Spotters do it as a community service to protect the public in their area and are usually assigned an area of "interest" by the wxnet or NWS to monitor. They dont have to make their own forecasts and stay close to home.

I have no prblem with spotters. They serve a great purpose but they are not chasers. Many people can tell if a storm is severe and recognize structure and report it to the NWS. Its a whole nother thing to make your own forecasts and choose a target and adjust as things change and catch a great storm.

[Rob_Davis]

I think it depends on the spotter, really. Some spotters definitely qualify as short-range chasers. Mileage isn't everything. Especially if you live in DFW, which has the highest number of tornadoes anywhere in the country. You don't have to look far for them here!

[Rob_Davis]

*biting my tongue*

[Jay McCoy]

I know some spotters who are very good at what they do and drive to the next few counties at the request of the NWS. Thats not my point. My point is they are sent there by the NWS or the local wxnet to observe wx. They do not formulate their own forecasts and choose a target 300 miles away in the next state and then drive for 12 hrs round trip just to take a picture. A chaser does. Their purpose is totally different than a chaser and most times their knowledge isnt as advanced (in most cases). I dont know of alot of spotters that can read a model and a sounding and choose a good target.

Trust me I hate being put on wx watch when i know better storms are 1 county away and I have to go to my assigned position and report light rain or small hail while somebody else shoots a tornado (can we say june 11th when I was on duty in amarillo mr David D.) Still mad about that one.

[Rob_Davis]

But we start splitting hairs at this point. It is not necessarily reasonable to characterize all spotters any more than it is to characterize all chasers.

There are quite a few so-called "chasers" out there who do not do their own in-depth forecasting. If that were the case, WX WORX and Tim V. would be out of business. The fact is, whether they do met level forecasting or not, they are still chasing, and commonly doing so successfully.

Could it not be said that those who do all their own forecasting without relying on technology or advice to find their targets are really just weather weenies who happen to chase?

[Jeff Snyder]

STOP IT! Any further bickering between Rob or Nick will result in immediate suspension. This is exactly what we are trying to get away from, and instead, I'm having flashbacks from elementary school. Take it to PM if you want to keep arguing, but you must NOT continue doing so in this thread.

[Sarah Berling]

Thanks, Jeff. :) Also, I don't think mileage should matter too much, as far as how far one must chase in order to become a "chaser". I've gone on chases (yes, they were actual chases) where I traveled a grand total of 75 miles - I ended up in Placitas, New Mexico, which is North of Albuquerque, but not very far. Caught an awesome storm and got some amazing pictures, but because I didn't travel the whole 100 miles or whatever, does that mean it wasn't a chase?

Just saying maybe we should not try to quantify the mileage and just try to qualify what creates a chaser, if this conversation should even be continued.


Sarah

[Jay McCoy]

If I upset anybody or offended anybody I am sorry and as David said I owe you a drink. I was just trying to point out what most people consider the differences are between chasers and spotters but this argument has gone on for years and wont be resolved here. I am both and proud of it.

[Rob_Davis]

It's all good, Jay. It really is all just semantics. But apparently it has become necessesary to strictly define who's who in this community, so eventually it has to be addressed.

The way I see it, "chasing" is a mindset more than a label. To many spotters, they ARE chasing! After all, they left the house and drove somewhere looking for a storm. They may not know how to formulate their own forecast or talk met-speak, and they may only drive twenty miles total, but regardless, they ARE chasing.

I hate to be the one to slay the sacred cow here, but the truth is that doing your own forecast is no more necessary to being a "chaser" than learning morse code is to being a ham radio operator. It may put you on some higher elitist plane than others, but when it comes down to it, you're still just a chaser like the rest of us (not referring to anybody in particular here).

[fplowman]

How about if I drive 700 or more miles round trip time and time again and didnt see ***** (2005) does that make me a chaser nick?? lol :wink:

I thought I would throw some humor in there.. Im sure yourself and others feel my pain. I got 2 lousy tornado pics this year while driving at 70+ mph in motion to catch up to them.. Blah!

[nickgrillo]

Originally posted by fplowman
How about if I drive 700 or more miles round trip time and time again and didnt see ***** (2005) does that make me a chaser nick?? lol :wink:

I thought I would throw some humor in there.. Im sure yourself and others feel my pain. I got 2 lousy tornado pics this year while driving at 70+ mph in motion to catch up to them.. Blah!

Well, I am sure you tried your best, Fred... It doesn't matter if you got a whole bunch of tornadoes -- At least you tried to... There was ALOT of very good chasers this year that wasn't able to get alot of tornadoes, probably due to the fact they had limited time available and there wasn't that many superhuge days this year...

[Bill Tabor]

Not sure if I caught all the thread here in review but there is a difference between chasers and spotters - typically. I will say that chasers can be spotters, and spotters are also sometimes chasers but not always. Distance isn't an issue.

Spotters are typically people that go out for the purpose of protecting the community. They often are part of a local organization dedicated to severe weather preparedness. Often spotters are also part of an amateur radio network so they can call in their reports.

Chasers on the other hand are really out primarily to see storms. They travel various distances to do this. I chase locally if tornadoes are locally and sometimes I go thousands of miles practically to Canada all to see a storm.

That's basically the defs as I see it and have heard and observed, or experienced them being used. Additionally you can have a person that is actually both. They can go out locally with a joint mission of catching watching storms (because they love them), and helping to warn the public. Some (very few) spotters will go long distances out of their community to help warn the public, but usually that is because they are also chasing the storms because of their love, photography, videography, media, etc.

Personally I consider myself a chaser but I do call in reports locally and in the field far away from home. However I am an individual and not part of a group.

[Mike Hollingshead]

I guess since I'm not trying to sell images or DVDs, I'm just not sympathetic to helping provide a home on the web for the severe wx enthusiast. Since Stormtrack is rooted in serving chasers, not enthusiasts, it seems that chaser's interests should be served first.

As far as Mike H.'s position - I'm really confused, since after leading a campaign to destroy the private group, which contributed to the enforcement of these changes on the main boards, it appears you now are taking the position that you don't want these changes that you just helped implement.


Really confused? It was said rather simply over and over and over again. Did you read my posts on here? I'm glad it/st isn't segregated as it was looking to do, but at the same time not happy to see those same ideas just plopped over here. Just what is so confusing about making that step? Did I say implement your ideas of only allowing chasers now? I don't think I did. I did NOT help implement that over here. The only one doing the implementing here is the OWNER of the site, like has been stated so many times whenever us whiners complain and its not agreed upon by the CORE folks, or others.

Due to your wording above, I guess my only motivation is to sell images and dvds. I mean I have to have some whack motivation(since it does not equal yours), don't I? I can't just feel this way AND sell things. Will a mod please remove my dvd post that is lost in a wrong forum from the change. Just completely remove it(seriously). It is such an evil thing anymore anyway. All it does is mutter up the minds of those one is argueing with. God. It also gives those holier than thou something to preach about, instead of just not liking something.

It is really simple for me, or at least it was. As completely open as possible, and free to all is always the best approach to me. *I* did not see ANY reason for me to have to have what was being desired. *I* will survive the "fluff" posts out there, which must be by the "fluff" posters. Very simple. I don't NEED this forum to cater to just my needs. Do I need all these "other" folks to post here? No. Do I NEED them to not be here, nope.

If you want to suggest my thoughts have been given because I'm trying to sell things, by all means feel free. If it helps your point, in your mind, hey, I'm here for ya. Meanwhile, I'll remove my dvd link post and the link at the bottom of my signature. It just gets in the way. If I put selling a dvd above my true feelings about complete openess, I would imagine the best course of action(to sell dvds) would certainly be trying to remain as uncontroversial as possible. Maybe that is why I said what I said in the bible thread too. JUST trying to sell dvds.

Would it be THAT hard to get Tim Marshall and/or David Hoadley on here and ask them who their target audience was when selling things? I bet they were open to anyone and I bet they weren't freaking evil or "ill-motivated" at the same time. I bet their lives went on when a non-chaser wanted to talk to them. I bet if they made stormtrack mag for chasers, that when they did so they never intended it to be SOLELY for them. I bet their 'souls' weren't so tainted to think it should be that way for THEIR sake. But hey, if that were the case, I'm sure they were just sympathetic to their needs so they could SELL them what they had.

Well I better stop my un-supported "reply", because it is nothing short of an attack. There, saved some the step. It is just continuing the negativity. Instead I should have just let this wrong commenting go. Will work on being an idiot I guess.

[Doug Lee]

I agree with the changes, and I do not consider myself a chaser. I am a spotter and a chaser wannabe. Currently, I cannot chase for economic reasons.

I refrained from posting on many of the religious and political threads because I didn't want to contribute to the noise. My views in those ares are not always easy to classify, and I'm sure my comments would have generated negative reactions from people on both sides of the spectrum.

Do I belong here? That's not for me to decide. I do not own this site, and so I must try to line up with the criteria laid out by the owners.

I can see the benefit to weather enthusiasts to allow them to view much of what is on this site, but I can see also see the problems that could (and on the old ST, have) come from letting them/us post on here. For example: I am a CAD drafter that works on a contract basis. Some potential clients have thought that using CAD software is as easy as word processing, so they thought I would be able to make changes to drawings within minutes instead of hours. They could benefit by watching me work: they would learn what is actually involed in creating and modifying a drawing, but they wouldn't necesarily have any foundation for commenting on how I was doing the job. Dealing with those commments would actually slow me down. I believe that is similar to what was happening on the the old ST.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Would like to say sorry to Glen for presuming his words on selling things, followed by mentioning me in something meant more than it did. I jumped to a conclusion from a paranoid stance and was wrong.

[Rob_Davis]

Hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you! :wink:

Don't worry, Mike. There is plenty enough paranoia here to go around. Seems like a lot of people take the changes or proposed changes as direct personal attacks.