THE MAPROOM

[nickgrillo]

This concerns The Maproom...

It should be noted to all of the board that there is quite a few problems in The Maproom, still. I for one am getting tired of seeing the SAME violators over and over again, mostly doing the same things that VIOLATE Maproom rules. I don't care if there is any TORs, I don't care if there is any WWs, if you do not have ANY INSIGHTFUL meteorological information, then don't post.

Its one thing when I am sitting in my living room with highspeed internet, looking at all the fluff, but when I am on the road trying to rush through things, sometimes with slow WIFI signals... I don't wanna look at this junk.

The rules are pretty strict in The Maproom, yet they are rarely enforced strictly. I would propose to start giving stern warnings via PM (moderators), and then if that individual continues, issue a suspension.

Anybody else?

[Brett Adair]

I will second that, Nick.

[Ryan McGinnis]

Originally posted by nickgrillo
This concerns The Maproom...

It should be noted to all of the board that there is quite a few problems in The Maproom, still. I for one am getting tired of seeing the SAME violators over and over again, mostly doing the same things that VIOLATE Maproom rules. I don't care if there is any TORs, I don't care if there is any WWs, if you do not have ANY INSIGHTFUL meteorological information, then don't post.

I'm sure the moderators are doing a good job of keeping the maproom worth reading. There is a fine line between keeping a forum clutter-free and being so strong with enforcement that nobody wants to post there. Nobody wants "WOOOEEEEE!!! TORNADO!!!!" posts, but I don't see anything like that in the maproom right now. Some of the posts are not terribly informative, but I can understand why the mods would not feel they reach the level of violating the forum's TOS. The most useful thing that we can do right now is settle down a bit for a month or so and see how the new system and moderation style works out before asking for immediate changes. We don't have a very large time sample yet and, really, this is all probably new to the moderators, too.

In the future, if this sentiment keeps popping up, perhaps Stormtrack could consider adding a "killfile" feature, where a user can mark a list of people whom they personally want filtered out of their fourm experience. This gives the user some personal "further restrictions" moderatorial control over their own forum experience, but still allows the moderators and admins to shape the forum as they see fit. I don't know how hard this is to work with phpBB; it may be more effort than it is worth.

[nickgrillo]

IMO, a post about CAPE or TORs is absolutely worthless, and completely clutters the forum. Basically, the only people who should be posting FCST/NOW discussions in The Maproom is a person with at least the basic understanding of Meteorology - to avoid getting in the way.

[rdale]

"We don't have a very large time sample yet and, really, this is all probably new to the moderators, too. "

Not at all - the person responsible for Nick's post has been doing this for quite a while now...

[rdale]

The TD10 thread consists of one good message, then a reply repeating the NHC forecast and the second reply is encouraging the Bermuda high to strengthen... Wow...

[Robert Dewey]

Yes, it is definitely becoming a problem. I am all for the restrictions going back on the Map Room... In the TD 10 thread, Sam is the only one with posts worth reading...

I really think there should be an "application" process for the Map Room... Meaning you must write an essay on your meteorological or chaser background. Either that, or let's start enforcing the rules.....

[Andrew Geil]

Sounds a lot like homework.

If I want homework, I'll go back to school.

No thanks.

[nickgrillo]

This is a very good reason why Stormtrack has changed its rules - and now only allows real chasers/people with a meteorology background into the forums. Due to the fact the rules just now have come into place, and there is still quite a few members whom would not fall into the new category, the rules of The Maproom should become more strictly enforced...

Meaning that if somebody continues to mess up on that forum, issue warnings/suspensions.

[Kurt Hulst]

I really think there should be an \"application\" process for the Map Room... Meaning you must write an essay on your meteorological or chaser background. Either that, or let's start enforcing the rules.....


I thought thats basically what we had to write about to join ST.

[nickgrillo]

Originally posted by Kurt Hulst
I really think there should be an \"application\" process for the Map Room... Meaning you must write an essay on your meteorological or chaser background. Either that, or let's start enforcing the rules.....


I thought thats basically what we had to write about to join ST.

Before Stormtrack x2, yeah, you had to write a brief bio on yourself and email it in (I never had to, as that wasn't even in place until we got +500 members in mid-2004) - its simuler now, but Stormtrack will now only accept active chasers.

I am all for the application thing for The Map Room (especially to any users that have made too much noise in the forum).

[Robert Dewey]

Originally posted by Andrew Geil
Sounds a lot like homework.

If I want homework, I'll go back to school.

No thanks.

If you want a high quality forum, then homework will have to be done :wink:

[MClarkson]

rdale, ill respond to your post from the hurricane thread here.

Since im a relative newbie I'll listen to what you guys say. Do you want a thread on a storm to have the latest updates as they come out, or do you want each and every post to have an in depth discussion of various forecast possibilities, with short updates just not posted at all?

[nickgrillo]

Originally posted by rdewey+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rdewey)</div><!--QuoteBegin-Andrew Geil
Sounds a lot like homework.

If I want homework, I'll go back to school.

No thanks.

If you want a high quality forum, then homework will have to be done :wink:[/b]

That is the major problem - there is quite a few members on Stormtrack that really don't care about quality (not juding anybody in particular, but I know there is a few).

[rdale]

We all get the latest updates, if you just follow the rules as set in the sticky at the top of the forum everyone will be happy...

- Rob

[nickgrillo]

Originally posted by MClarkson
rdale, ill respond to your post from the hurricane thread here.

Since im a relative newbie I'll listen to what you guys say. Do you want a thread on a storm to have the latest updates as they come out, or do you want each and every post to have an in depth discussion of various forecast possibilities, with short updates just not posted at all?

Short updates are fine, yet they should contain valueable meteorological information (i.e. A discussion that yourself wrote up on the WX situation) - and not a useless one liner post, or a post containing information that is copied/available from NOAA websites.

[MClarkson]

ok, sorry, I wont do it again.

[mikegeukes]

Nick Grillo wrote:
I am all for the application thing for The Map Room (especially to any users that have made too much noise in the forum).
Nick Grillo
Here is my background in meteorology for The Map Room:

Education:
-East Kentwood High School: Diploma
-Grand Rapids Community College: Associate of Arts
-Aquinas College: Coursework in Georgraphy
-Central Michigan University: Bachelor of Science
Major: Earth Science with a concentration in Meteorology
Major: Geography
-Creighton University: Coursework in Atmospheric Sciences
-Lansing Community College: Coursework in Broadcasting
-Penn State University: Distance Course in Weather Forecasting
-Mississippi State University: Certificate in Operational Meteorology

Professional Memberships:
American Meteorological Society: Full Member
Gamma Theta Upsilon: International Geographical Honor Society
National Weather Association

Internships:
National Weather Service: Student Volunteer
WOOD-TV Grand Rapids, MI

Other:
SKYWARN Spotter

Background in Forecasting Classes in College:

PENN STATE UNIVERSITY: Received a A in this course.
METEO 101: Understanding Weather Forecasting 3 Credits
Fundamental principles of synoptic and physical meteorology, satellite and radar imagery, and data analysis in the setting of mid-latitude weather forecasting.

MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY: Received all A's in these courses
Synoptic Meteorology I -Course Code: GR 4713 -Credit Hours: 3
Description: Fundamental principles behind weather forecasting. Physical processes in the atmosphere, atmospheric circulation systems, air mass analysis, frontogenesis and frontolysis.

Synoptic Meteorology II -Course Code: GR 4623 -Credit Hours: 3
Description: Advanced analysis and detailed case studies of meteorological phenomena related to weather forecasting problems. Short and long-range forecasting techniques are presented.

Weather Prediction I -Course Code: GR 4443 -Credit Hours: 3
Description: Detailed discussion of all the weather products that can be used to formulate a forecast.

Weather Prediction II -Course Code: GR 4453 -Credit Hours: 3
Description: Analysis of case studies of different weather events in various locations in different seasons.

CENTRAL MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY: Received all A's in these courses
ESC 303 - Synoptic Meteorology I 3(2-2)
A description of the structure and evolution of synoptic scale weather phenomena. Theory and use of thermodynamic diagrams. Techniques used in numerical weather prediction.

ESC 303 - Synoptic Meteorology II 3(2-2)
A description of the structure and evolution of mesoscale and cumulus scale weather systems. Mesoscale forecasting techniques and manual and computer analysis of meteorological data. Prerequisites: ESC 303.

-Won Central Michigan Synoptic Meteorology Forecasting Contest

That is my background for The Map Room, also plan on attending
graduate school somewhere in the Spring semester of 2006.

Would be interesting to see other people's background, in forecasting, including Nick's.

-Found a WIFI location
-Back to the campground for the week.
-Still looking for a place to live.

Later
Mike (EF from Chat)
http://efchasing.blogspot.com/

[Robert Dewey]

Mike... I am not talking about posting qualifications, I am simply stating that using an essay on the application process will cut out those who know nothing.

Heck, I barely made it through high school, yet I am very meteorologically oriented and can post decent posts in the Map Room. How do I do it? By simply following the rules. I am all for allowing access to everyone, but it seems like nobody wants to read the rules. So, there are three (or more) options:

1) Start moderating the Map Room better
2) Make the registration/application process more difficult or;
3) Keep things are the way they are, and everyone ignore it...

[Rob_Davis]

I've got an idea. How about if you are not personally involved in chasing this particular event, or nowcasting for somebody who is, stay out?

That way the posts are more than simple academic exercises. They have an actual chaser component point to them. After all, otherwise it is simply weather weenie talk.

Seems like those who are so bent out of shape over the "non-chasers" would love this idea, but I doubt it. :roll:

[rdale]

"How about if you are not personally involved in chasing this particular event, or nowcasting for somebody who is, stay out?"

If you are chasing the event, you probably don't have nearly the amount of data that those armchairing will. And why would there be a requirement be nowcasting for a specific person? Seems way off the mark. Sounds a little elite-ish to me!

[David Wolfson]

Please see my suggestions about this in the *** Stormtrack Changes and Recommendations Thread ***.

[rdale]

I guess I don't understand why having a "nowcaster recipient" would be a criteria for nowcasting... So you could have an idiot posting in the chase thread because he has a buddy chasing, but an SPC forecaster can't put his thoughts in because he's at home too far away?

It's not about chasers vs non - it's about posting stuff of value. Saying there is a Tornado Warning for some state has NO value to anyone.

[nickgrillo]

Originally posted by Rob_Davis
I've got an idea. How about if you are not personally involved in chasing this particular event, or nowcasting for somebody who is, stay out?

That way the posts are more than simple academic exercises. They have an actual chaser component point to them. After all, otherwise it is simply weather weenie talk.

Seems like those who are so bent out of shape over the \"non-chasers\" would love this idea, but I doubt it. :roll:

That doesn't solve the problem at all -- Its not about whether or not you're chasing the particular event, its about posting guidelines, and how numerous users have been violating them. I don't care about TORs and WWs, like I said before - and I don't care if the person is chasing that event or not, its againest the rules and its VERY high noise, and its absolutely worthless IMO.

[Scott Olson]

Originally posted by rdewey
Mike... I am not talking about posting qualifications, I am simply stating that using an essay on the application process will cut out those who know nothing.

Heck, I barely made it through high school, yet I am very meteorologically oriented and can post decent posts in the Map Room. How do I do it? By simply following the rules. I am all for allowing access to everyone, but it seems like nobody wants to read the rules. So, there are three (or more) options:

1) Start moderating the Map Room better
2) Make the registration/application process more difficult or;
3) Keep things are the way they are, and everyone ignore it...

I'd opt for more moderation in the map room and a little more patience on the transition from the talk format. As long as the map room is to be open to all chasers regardless of meteoroligcal experience I think the focus should be on moderation and possible removal of Map room privilages for those who continually violate the rules.

[Robert Edmonds]

Just moderate better, my suggestion.

P.S. Hey while all of you are trying to solve ST problems could one of you serious chasers with a background in met. go answer my question about the cap?

[David Wolfson]

I don't want to join in a debate about this, so this is just to explain my suggestions, not defend them.

The main problem with TA/Map Room from what I see is that it sometimes gets cluttered up with relatively useless and ill-informed posts -- most of them from kibbitzers and armchair chasers. Nothing wrong with being an "armchair chaser"! We're all that at least some of the time. However the active chasers for a given event need to suffer through all the other stuff that may not be on-point or technically sound.

A active chaser in the field posting to Map Room may not be an expert, but they're above all what ST is for. They're also not likely to waste their and everyone else's time with a really poor choice of nowcasters; and if they do they can be called out on it.

I'm not suggesting that the Map Room is "advanced" or "elite" with respect to the Classroom. Under my suggestions even the most veteran and expert should post to parallel Classroom threads if they don't meet the criteria for posting in the Map Room with respect to a given storm event. I don't think it will turn out to be a big deal if there's a relatively high noise level in the parallel Classroom thread, so long as the Map Room is kept tidy.

[John Diel]

I went through this very scenario last year in TA. When it boiled down to brass tacks, I was wrong and "they" were right. If I remember correctly though, we were able to discuss this a bit more calmly than what I read is happening here. The same points are getting hammered in, time and time again and the whole thing is spinning it's wheels.

I believe everyone here knows who the moderators are. I believe everyone here knows how to PM those moderators. I would suggest that first off, you try to PM the person making the "Improper" post and give them some helpful advice (and I don't mean "Hey Jerk, your not posting the right thing"!). If that produces no results, then contact a Moderator via PM and ARTICULATE your complaint. I see no value in posting this type of thing here where it gets blown out of porportion and we end up in yet another flame war.

Try to help the other person before persecuting them. Help educate them in forecasting. Help them learn to be better and make a positive contribution.

I don't articulate my forecasts well. That is an issue I am working on and striving to learn more about. There are several folks here on ST that are helping me to become more articulate in forecasting. I vowed that I would not post in TA (or Map Room as is is now known) until I could make a useful contribution and put in more than simply "TOR in Harper County, KS!"

Let's try to get away from this negative attitude and tearing down of everything. Let's make it positive again and try to help each other instead of pointing fingers and shouting.

I hate to say it, but if the negative continues, this board will go the way of WX-Chase and I would really hate to see that happen.

[Rob_Davis]

Originally posted by rdale
If you are chasing the event, you probably don't have nearly the amount of data that those armchairing will. And why would there be a requirement be nowcasting for a specific person? Seems way off the mark. Sounds a little elite-ish to me!
Thank you, Rob! That is my point exactly. There is always another level of elitism above the one that you (not you specifically) are espousing. So what you get are people being elitist only up to the point that they themselves may be excluded, then they suddenly start worrying about being too elitist.

More than half of the stuff in the Map Room NOBODY is chasing. And when nobody is chasing it, it is not chase related. And when it is not chase related, then it is no longer what this board is supposed to be about. Or at least, that was my understanding of what Tim said this whole reorganization was all about.

Again, it seems to me that if noise in the Map Room is what people are really up in arms about, they would welcome the elimination of simple academic discussion and people trying to impress us with their amateur forecasts when in fact they have no involvement in any active chase. Move all that discussion and suddenly you have a very streamlined Map Room, and then the high level academic discussion that the "core" wants returns to the Weather forum where it belongs.

But whether it be this suggestion or any of the other good suggestions put forth so far, as many have already noted, success does all come down to effective moderation.

[rdale]

"More than half of the stuff in the Map Room NOBODY is chasing."

I'm curious where that number comes from... If it's severe - I have to imagine somebody is on it. Just because they don't post doesn't mean they don't read or chase.

"Again, it seems to me that if noise in the Map Room is what people are really up in arms about, they would welcome the elimination of simple academic discussion and people trying to impress us with their amateur forecasts when in fact they have no involvement in any active chase."

No, I think the academic discussions are great. It's the one-liners that don't offer anything that my 7yr old daughter can find which are the noise problems.

- Rob

[Rob_Davis]

Originally posted by rdale
No, I think the academic discussions are great. It's the one-liners that don't offer anything that my 7yr old daughter can find which are the noise problems.
I agree with you, Rob. The more academic discussion here, the better. It's just that the Map Room isn't the place for it. It's not chasing. It's weather weenie talk.

[Dave Kaplow]

Originally posted by Rob_Davis+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob_Davis)</div><!--QuoteBegin-rdale
No, I think the academic discussions are great. It's the one-liners that don't offer anything that my 7yr old daughter can find which are the noise problems.
I agree with you, Rob. The more academic discussion here, the better. It's just that the Map Room isn't the place for it. It's not chasing. It's weather weenie talk.[/b]

Yes, exactly, I think we all want that kind of stuff, but it doesn't really belong in the Map Room. Yet it might also look out of place in the current Weather forum, and that's why I was advocating an advanced technical area. I think the advanced topic thing was misunderstood, people thought we were talking about an elite Map Room clone... I don't know about Mike U (who first proposed it), but my idea was more about technical stuff that as you say really belongs in Weather Lab, but isn't getting posted there currently. As far as I'm concerned all items dealing with a current chaseable event belong in Map Room, unless the poster is merely using the ongoing event as an example in support of some personal theory, in which case the post should probably go elsewhere, as the main point would be the theory and not the unfolding event.

About the 48 hour limit on Reports... I can see where some folks might have a problem with it. As I see it, the problem here is that there are really 2 different kinds of Report. There is the report from the road by a chaser giving a quick glimpse of what is either ongoing or has just been observed, and then there is the full chase-log type of report that is put together with care after the chase is well over. Both kinds of report are desirable, but I’m thinking the 2nd kind might actually be better housed away from the Map Room. What I’d really like to see is a 2-tier system, with the quick and informative reports from the field appearing in the Map Room, and the later more polished and detailed reports perhaps going elsewhere, maybe to a permanent "archive of events" section. I know, I know, this is unlikely to ever be implemented and I shouldn't have brought it up, but the fact remains that we are currently treating Report posts as if they all serve a single purpose, and I'm not sure that they do.

[Darren Addy]

I think it is worth mentioning that just because you don't SEE it being moderated, doesn't mean it isn't BEING moderated. For example, I made an improper/uninformative comment in a Map Room thread and got a quick PM from the moderator informing me of my violation and what continued violations could lead to. (Which I think is great). I'm sure the same thing is happening to a lot of the posters of the comments that are being objected to as "low quality".

You have to accept that a certain amount of "education" is going to be occurring with increased moderation and this should (in time) lead to the desired effect of a higher quality board (and in particular - Map Room).

I'd urge those of you who would like to be mods to qualify to be mods in the future - but acting like a mod-wanna-be, assuming that no moderation is being done and then publicly complaining about it (or bad posts) isn't doing a lot to help the signal to noise ratio on Stormtrack.

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE

[Tim Stoecklein]

VERY good point Darren! :wink: I'm no MOD, but I'd rather (and have) educate those who make 'improper' posts through PM otherwise you're just adding to the pile........

Tim

[Bill Tabor]

I think you folks are somewhat off on a tangent and discussing a lot of what has already been provided, as well as method of execution. You are asking about more moderation in Maproom, and should it be centered around chasers, and low quality posts, etc. These are already explained generally in the new rules:

*(1) Stormtrack's purpose is to provide quality discussion for and about chasers.

Also: Stormtrack's primary objective is to provide a venue for quality storm chasing discussion. All other objectives are secondary to that. We aggressively enforce all rules.
Also: 2. Purpose. The Stormtrack forum is intended for discussion about WEATHER and STORM CHASING.

(5) There is no more membership list for Target Area (Map Room). Members are now responsible for the consequences of posting here. Failure to follow the rules, including contributing low quality material, will result in suspension.

(2) Disruption of Map Room threads. Users are expected to closely adhere to these guidelines and the posting style implemented in Map Room. Failure to do so will result in a Map Room posting ban, or suspension.

(3) Prohibited content. Users may NOT post weather bulletins and forecast images except as brief excerpts and with original supporting information. Frivolous content is prohibited.

I think (1) indicates that maproom (until rewritten) is about chasers and chasing. I do believe however they intend that severe meteorologists and forecasters are welcome to post for the input to the chase forecast. (5), (2), (3) indicate that moderation will be the vehicle for keeping Maproom on track as opposed to a membership list. These also explain that low quality posts and posts that violate the style and guidelines can result in user suspension or banning.

These really seem fairly clear. Sure they could have elaborated a bit more. It is saying everyone is welcome to post in Maproom, but be careful because if you are frivolous and wasting everyone's time, or just breaking post rules then you can be suspended or banned by the moderators or adminstrator.

I will add however that I think the brief descriptions about each section and the method of allowed posting to each section should be expanded upon so that everyone knows how to post and what exactly they can post, etc. See my 'How to Post?' thread for an example.

Alternatively, it may be that the descriptions of each section and it's use are brief and somewhat vague because the goal is to restrict, but allow it to be a little bit flexible and open ended. This is fine, but if this the case then moderators shouldn't give people too much of a hard time if they fudge a bit. I don't think they do. I think they give everyone a little bit of leeway and running room.

Finally, the rule changes state:
"It would be great to cater to weather weenies, observers, spotters, and amateur scientists, but there are other sites available for that."

So I think it is clear, and once again I will go on record (in case that has somehow gotten lost in the discussion of so many opinions) stating that I support the new rules and the 'chase centric' focus. Like they say they would like to support all groups (meaning 'purposes'), but Stormtrack is and has always been about chasing. I believe they feel that weather weenies, observers, spotters, and amateur scientists are all welcome as long as they have a chase focus, or are chasing, or perhaps want to contribute to a chase forecast. In other words, everything is cool so long as it somehow has a tie in to chasing. Existing members will remain as long as they observe the rules. New applicants will apparently be screened to maintain a high quality 'chase centric' or chase centered / focused membership.