Great lakes Waterspouts

[tom hanlon]

The HWO for Western Michigan makes note of the strong cold front coming through and the potential for waterspouts on the great lakes.

I always mean to chase these but the forecast is always so sketchy that I never head out to the lakes.

Basically you look for a strong temperature differential. Warm lake cold air and you have the potential for waterspouts. Saw some nice dust devils in Wyoming/Nebraska this summer. Same deal, warm ground, cooler air. The dust devils got me thinking about waterspouts.

Anyone chase them, or have seen them on the great lakes ??

--
Tom Hanlon

[Kevin Bowman]

ive saw 2 a few years ago a mile or 2 off the downtown Chicago lakeshore

[Kurt Hulst]

I have always wanted to try and see a watersput over the lake but have not. I live in Grand Rapids about 25-35 miles from Lake MI. Though today i saw the most awesome but short lived Dust Devil today. so cool

[rdale]

I wouldn't ever make a special trip just to do it, they are far from good enough to be able to predict that. But if some get spotted, you usually have time to make it to the shoreline.

[Dan Robinson]

http://vos.noaa.gov/MWL/dec_04/waterspout.shtml

http://www.pbase.com/kjosker/image/25271733

http://www.walleyecentral.com/photopost/sh...&sort=1&cat=all (http://www.walleyecentral.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1352&password=&sort=1&cat=all)

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/dtx/images/wtrspout.gif

Those would make for a nice fall expedition.

This winter, though, I'm making some trips to the mountains for snow devils. Last April I saw an awesome outbreak of these things, some big/intense enough to do damage if they hit something weak. I had passengers so I couldn't chase or stop for very long to shoot video.

[Andrew Khan]

ive saw 2 a few years ago a mile or 2 off the downtown Chicago lakeshore

Kevin, where did you see them, and when? Was it across from the Navy Pier, or across from downtown chicago Lake MI, or across from the new botany garden museum in downtown Chicago. I'm also thinking of a place, that is really near Navy Pier, it's a new entertainment feature in chicago....

How do you predict waterspouts? They are normally spawned by a 'normal' thunderstorm, that does not have stormscale tornadic rotation and usually aren't to obvious on radar. So how can you chase/be there when they happen?

[rdale]

Waterspouts do NOT come from thunderstorms. They come from cumulus clouds, of the non-precipitating variety.

[Greg Stumpf]

Waterspouts do NOT come from thunderstorms. They come from cumulus clouds, of the non-precipitating variety.
Sure they can. I've seen Lake Ontario spout with lightning many times.

[Andrew Khan]

I have seen them (not in person), come from thunderstorm towers/clouds..that one of my comrades took...but they can variate...some can form from an actual supercell that forms overwater it would actually be a tornado, and then they can form normal thunderstorms/towering cumulus'. Rdale, how can they form from just plain cumulus cloud cover...and usually normal cumulus clouds don't have precipitation (Rain/Hail) to give off.

[Ben Leitschuh]

I'd also like to know more about this topic. Can anyone link some research or good articles concerning waterspouts on the lakes? I have lived a mile from Lake Michigan (north Chicago burbs) for about 20 years and have never seen one. I have a feeling that there's more luck than anything else involved with spotting them.

[mikegeukes]

I have only witness 1 waterspout on Lake Michigan,
then again, I am not looking for them either.

Some llinks:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/apx/spotter/guide/wspout.htm
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/apx/waterspouts.shtml
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/alma...02/alm02oct.htm (http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/almanac/arc2002/alm02oct.htm)
http://www.weathernotebook.org/transcripts.../2005/08/15.php (http://www.weathernotebook.org/transcripts/2005/08/15.php)

Mike

[rdale]

"Waterspouts do NOT come from thunderstorms. They come from cumulus clouds, of the non-precipitating variety."

Sorry - hate when I generalize... A large majority of Great Lakes spouts do not come from thunderstorms ;>

"ome can form from an actual supercell that forms overwater it would actually be a tornado,"

Right - that's a tornado. We're talking waterspouts here...

"and usually normal cumulus clouds don't have precipitation (Rain/Hail) to give off."

Right. Rarely do waterspouts come with any precip.

http://tinyurl.com/8sowz

[Andrew Khan]

How can just a 'normal' plain old cumulus cloud prduce intense rotation like in a waterspout...for that matter, how can it produce any rotation at all...just a plain Cumulus Humulus we're talking about here...are we on the same page, Rdale? Are Waterspouts reported as tornadoes to the NWS?

[rdale]

The same way cold-air funnels can come from "plain old" clouds too... The rotation is frequently "not intense" although I don't know what ratio of "strong" to "weak" would be...

[Andrew Khan]

Cold air funnels can (and do) come from plain old general thunderstorms (not supercells), I've never heard of any rotation or funnel coming out of a cumulus cloud....can you show me a documentation of this, please?

[Robert Dewey]

Cold air funnels can (and do) come from plain old general thunderstorms (not supercells), I've never heard of any rotation or funnel coming out of a cumulus cloud....can you show me a documentation of this, please?

Right here: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/eyw/HTML/spottertext.html

"Fair weather waterspouts"

[Andrew Khan]

I'd have to say, a great deal with chasing waterspouts/seeing one, has to do with pure luck. Other than minor marine forecasting, such as look at buoy feeds, and what not. Snpw devils/Dust Devils, are completely luck, no forecasting is involved, or can be.

[Steven Williams]

"ome can form from an actual supercell that forms overwater it would actually be a tornado,"

Right - that's a tornado. We're talking waterspouts here...



A tornado formed by a supercell over water is still labelled a waterspout.
Thats surely standard convention. :)

[rdale]

It's called a "tornadic waterspout" or "tornado over water" - a true waterspout is what we're talking about and does not require a thunderstorm.

[Patrick Kerrin]

"ome can form from an actual supercell that forms overwater it would actually be a tornado,"

Right - that's a tornado. We're talking waterspouts here...



A tornado formed by a supercell over water is still labelled a waterspout.
Thats surely standard convention. :)

Sorry, but any vortex extending from cloud base to surface of sufficient intensity to create damage (we can debate the exact quantitative threshold) IS a tornado. Period.

One then can also consider if the tornado is mesocyclonic or non-mesocyclonic.

Also note that the original definition of a "supercell" considers a temporal component so it is theoreticaly possible to have (an albeit brief) mesocyclonic tornado from a non-supercell - under the original definition (I don't know if the definition of a supercell still contains a strict temporal requirement). I would posit that such a storm would be exhibiting some or many visual supercellular characteristics during the period it is mesocyclonic and tornadic.

See how some definitions and catagorizations can clash, and how it can be hard to pigeon-hole the atmosphere into human defined categories - especially if they are psudeo-arbitrary (the temporal aspect of the supercell definition is the human defined part). Now think about the F scale!

On the other hand, the definition that a tornado is a vortex (with vortex lines) extending from cloud base to the ground is based soley on the physics of the process. Worrying about what sort of surface the vortex is over is the human defined part that only muddles things up (taken to the ad-absurdium, what is a tornado over an man-made lake???). Now think about the F Scale again!!

[Dave Chapman]

This same definitional issue confuses matters along the Orange County coast, where the local concentration of tornadoes is due to "fair-weather waterspouts" coming ashore, such as this vortex off Newport Beach on 1-11-01:
http://www.kickbully.com/Storms/1-11-01g.jpg

But then when a waterspout forms under a storm with deep moist convection and deep-layer shear, but dissipates a hundred yards offshore, it remains a waterspout by standard definitions, such these vortexes off Newport and Huntington Beaches on 2-19-05:
http://www.kickbully.com/2005Storm/2-19-05a.jpg

http://www.kickbully.com/2005Storm/2-19-05f.jpg

A few years ago a "tornado" (by standard definition) hit a local dive bar located a hundred feet from the ocean, with the damage being primarily the amount of sand that got in everyones' beer. (But then I suppose the column of air by that time wasn't rotating violently enough to be a tornado....)

[Andrew Khan]

Definitons conflict all the time, it seems...

[Simon Brewer]

I saw 3 well-developed waterspouts over Lake Erie in late July of 2004, while at Cedar Point Amusement Park!

The first waterspout developed while I was on the "Meanstreak"; the train was going up the first lift hill, I looked to my left and was amazed to see a well developed rope funnel. As the train approached the top of the hill I could see a tight ball of spray at the water surface a few hundred feet under the tip of the funnel. I lost sight of the spectacle as the train descended into the first "dip", but at the top of the second hill/turn I regained visual and the waterspout had become more developed with the condensation all the way to the surface. I lost and regained view of the waterspout several times until the ride finished, but by the time I got off the coaster the waterspout had dissipated.

The other two developed about 20 minutes later at the same spot, but I was then in line for the "Gemini". A large stovepipe waterspout developed first and minutes later a thin rope developed to its east. The waterspouts lasted about 10 minutes or so and were then under cut by cold outflow from the thunderstorm, which produced them.

Didn't have a camera with me, but wish I did; I'm not going to Ceder Point again without bringing at least a disposable camera.

Simon Brewer

[mark humpage]

We get em in the UK too :wink:

http://www.torro.org.uk/uploaded_images/tornados/photos/Spout%202.jpg

Mark[/img]

[Andrew Khan]

We get em in the UK too :wink:

http://www.torro.org.uk/uploaded_images/tornados/photos/Spout%202.jpg

Mark[/img]

But see, that looks like it was spawned by some sort of convective storm, and without any 'normal' features...see in the background there looks like a lot of precipitation...

[Karen Politte]

That's exactly what landspouts ARE - they are ALL convectively-induced......as far as I know.......which isn't very far. :lol:

It's true that you don't need a deep mesocyclone/supercellular characteristics to get landspouts (by their nature that's not what they are, most of the time).........but in the end of the day you'll always need a Cb or congestus above it to stretch that pre-existing vorticity to cloud base.

KR

[Andrew Khan]

That's what I was saying earlier...but he said, you can get one out of plain fair-weather cumulus, and he may be right, but I thought that most likely they were caused from the high amount of convection in a cloud base....

[Kevin Bowman]

from WGNTV, formed right off the downtown Chicago shore, the domed building in front is the adler planetarium

http://wgntv.trb.com/news/weather/weblog/wgnweather/archives/ws102505.jpg

[Andrea Griffa]

Originally posted by mark humpage
We get em in the UK too :wink:


Mark[/img]

The same thing for us in Italy :wink:

Look at this:

http://www.tornadoit.org/immagini/terracinab2.jpg

And this other:

http://www.tornadoit.org/immagini/terracina1b.JPG

[Khristian Snyder]

wow...that is a crazy looking waterspout...my heart jumped a bit when i saw that thing...wow :shock: :shock:

[rdale]

"The same thing for us in Italy "

I find it very hard to believe those are waterspouts... They really look like tornadoes over water.

[Jeff Snyder]

I say we only use the term waterspout to denote the 'fair-weather' waterspout that is not necessarily associated with a cumulonimbus updraft. The pics on the previous page are certainly more 'tornadoes over water' than fair-weather waterspouts. Much like the reason we don't use the term landspout to describe all land-based tornadoes.

[Kiel Ortega]

The Italian photos are awesome. Regardless of terminology, I'd be careful to that they are not true waterspouts (what does that mean anyway). From the AMS Glossary, a waterspout is just a tornado over water, regardless of the storm (or cloud) it came from. Commonly they are non-supercellular (from AMS Glossary), but regardless of origin they can get big. Specifically from the Italian photos--especially the first one, they aren't necessarily produced from supercells (as I think the previous 2 posters were implying). Note the flags in the first photo...blowing left to right. So either that is one powerful, anticyclonic tornado or it's a strong waterspout (i.e., not caused from a supercell) probably caused from frictional differences along the shore (note the land jutting out behind the spout...and are those people on the beach???!!! :shock: )

[Andrew Khan]

It's controversial, LOL. I have aproblem, see if waterspouts were ONLY called that, if they form out of a normal cumulus cloud, then what do you call an actual supercelluar tornado on water? A Tornadic Waterspout, or a tornado on water?

[rdale]

" tornado on water"

Same thing you would call a supercell tornado that passes over a pond...

[Andrew Khan]

Here is a question that I am wondering about, that is related to this. Does the vortex of a waterspout/'tornado over water' cause a vortex even into the water itself? Like cause actual rotation/vorticies in the water?

[Andrea Griffa]

Obviously they are tornadoes over water.But isn't a waterspout a tornado over water?
Anyway here in Italy we have an high number of real waterspouts over the sea,not strong like those but sometimes they're amazing.

[Andrea Griffa]

Originally posted by Kiel Ortega
The Italian photos are awesome. Regardless of terminology, I'd be careful to that they are not true waterspouts (what does that mean anyway). From the AMS Glossary, a waterspout is just a tornado over water, regardless of the storm (or cloud) it came from. Commonly they are non-supercellular (from AMS Glossary), but regardless of origin they can get big. Specifically from the Italian photos--especially the first one, they aren't necessarily produced from supercells (as I think the previous 2 posters were implying). Note the flags in the first photo...blowing left to right. So either that is one powerful, anticyclonic tornado or it's a strong waterspout (i.e., not caused from a supercell) probably caused from frictional differences along the shore (note the land jutting out behind the spout...and are those people on the beach???!!! :shock: )

However I agree with kiel: this is the definition of waterpouts:

What is a waterspout? A waterspout is a tornado over water -- usually meaning non-supercell tornadoes over water. Waterspouts are common along the southeast U.S. coast -- especially off southern Florida and the Keys -- and can happen over seas, bays and lakes worldwide. Although waterspouts are always tornadoes by definition; they don't officially count in tornado records unless they hit land. They are smaller and weaker than the most intense Great Plains tornadoes, but still can be quite dangerous. Waterspouts can overturn small boats, damage ships, do significant damage when hitting land, and kill people. The National Weather Service will often issue special marine warnings when waterspouts are likely or have been sighted over coastal waters, or tornado warnings when waterspouts can move onshore.

If this is the definition I can use the term "waterspouts" to define my "tornado over water" . Ok, it's true that usually they are caused by non supercell tornadoes, but "usually" doesn't mean "always".

After this it looks like that you could call'em both tornadoes over water and waterspouts.