Pictures on Tornado Attack Website

[Niki Darnaby]

Looks like there are some pictures on the tornado attack website:

www.tornadoattack.com

hmmmm.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Success!
On June 12th 2004 we successfully entered a live Tornado in Kansas.
Details to come - click here for photos

http://www.tornadoattack.com/photo.htm

Maybe the "eye" photos are being developed yet?

http://www.tornadoattack.com/62204fbgcvfdcfd.jpg

I know....the camera it was shot with was sucked out of his hands and he's running to find the camera.

http://www.tornadoattack.com/62204fbgcvfdcfd3fg.jpg
"Pictures, I was supposed to take pictures from inside?"

[Gayla Drummond]

Oh, yeah. Nice photos. :lol:

My 10 year old son said, after seeing pics of their vehicle, "I hope that guy changes his mind about that.....that's really kind of stupid." :wink:

[Shane Adams]

Lots of vehcile pictures and pics of a tornado they DIDN'T get into........pretty much what I figured. The Tornado Attack project was 100% HYPE. Funny how it's been 2 months since Timmer and the gang hopped on board and yet their info still isn't up. Might as wel take the link down now, that TA craze has come and gone.

Now Steve Green can get back to not winning races.

[fplowman]

That is kinda scary.. It does look like the ultimate chase vehicle though.. just dont know that I would always be punching with it..Hell you dont know youhit the wrong tornado until your there and its too late.. lol

Has anyone showed them pictures of Halem Nebraska?? i f not I have some pics of vehicles when a supposed F3 leveled the square and main street of Stockton missouri on may 4th of 2003..

Whats funny to me though is the Chaser community chastises and castigates the tornado attack project.. Im learning alot and enjoying it.. :)

[Shane Adams]

Originally posted by fplowman
Whats funny to me though is the Chaser community chastises and castigates the tornado attack project.. Im learning alot and enjoying it.. :)

You'd expect us to support the idea of driving into a tornado?

And what exactly are you learning from this tool.....how to be an idiot? Why don't you ride along with him and try it yourself. You're gonna LOVE that feeling of total weightlessness just before you lift off the ground....what a rush. Except we came right back down, you guys might end up in Oz.

Not really getting that post,

[Robert Dewey]

[quote]You're gonna LOVE that feeling of total weightlessness just before you lift off the ground....what a rush. Except we came right back down, you guys might end up in Oz.

LOL :lol:

Not much else to say to that...

Robert

[fplowman]

Dude/. i didnt say i wanted to ride with him.. reread my post.. i said Im learning alot. i didnt mean from them I meant from reading here..

Why not a tank though.. I bet you could drive through most any tornado in a tank.. lol.. I can appreciate the idea as a rush.. lol :D

[Shane Adams]

Why not a tank though.. I bet you could drive through most any tornado in a tank.. lol.. I can appreciate the idea as a rush.. lol :D

Because it's near-impossible to maneuver quickly and efficiently, two attributes which are a must for any close-in tornado intercept. Also, add to that the fact that you'd most-likely have another Steve Green piloting the damned thing, which means the guy in control of it would have no clue about forecasting or chasing tornadoes.

Oh, and finally - an F4 or greater tornado doesn't care if it's a tank, or a train, or a semi. You really should do some reading.....

[Mike Hardiman]

Better hope for some smooth paved roads with that thing. It's so low-riding, it looks like it would bottom out on a speed bump.

Which raises an interesting question- is this thing even "street legal?" Where is it registered, in what state did it pass inspection?

(Probably New Mexico, they'll register any piece of rust so long as there is a wheel on it somewhere.)

[fplowman]

Shane,

Why are you trying to argue to argue.??. i have only been here a few days and its the second attack while just trying to be part of the conversation... Hell.. David Drummond drove through a tornado and has the video..How many here core punch?? How often do you see an f4 or f5?? who the hell would drive into that? why would you insinuate im stupid? driving a tank would be the safet vehicle i could think of.. It isnt practical and was just said in jest..

I think Ill just keep my mouth shut from now on as I feel there are people here that know it all and that i cant say **** without a hateful correction... :wink:

[mikedeason]

I think Ill just keep my mouth shut from now on as I feel there are people here that know it all and that i cant say **** without a hateful correction...

Well, there's a lot of people and a lot of personalities here. Sometimes you just gotta let it go. I know that's hard because I had an overreaction the other day about some comments made about one of my posts. Totally my fault because I failed to consider the full context. Life goes on.

Besides, Shane's not a bad guy. Like Animal Mother in "Full Metal Jacket", he's just needs someone to lob hand granades at him the rest of his life. :-)

Regards,

Mike

[Tim Vasquez]

Attention everyone:

Flame wars and disrespect against other users is not tolerated on Stormtrack. We are trying to maintain a high signal-to-noise ratio. If this continues, the parties involved will be suspended without further warning. If anyone has anything bad to say about Tornado Attack, that's fine, but keep the focus on their field strategy rather than falling back on character issues.

[fplowman]

Sorry i got involved.. it wasnt my intent.. Im new here and want no trouble..this website has been a great resource for education. in addition it has allowed me to be succesful in intercepting storms where without this outlet i might still be chasing without success..

[Mike Hollingshead]

Whats funny to me though is the Chaser community chastises and castigates the tornado attack project.. Im learning alot and enjoying it.. :)

I can easily see how that comment could be taken "wrongly". I thought pretty much the same thing Shane did when I read it. You yourself said this was funny to you, then add you were learning alot...(with the smile). So us giving the project our honest opinion by "attacking the attack" was funny to you....then you say you are learning a lot with a smile I personally took as a snide smile. There are many attacks on forums, one can expect that with differences in opinions and reading things the wrong way. Certainly you can understand how we could take what you wrote wrongly...try to read it other then how you meant it. I can now read it as you intended it though. It first came across smart assy, but I can read it otherwise now. So I wouldn't get too stirred up over anything Shane said in return. He read it wrong like I did, I think. You just thought it was funny we give him crap as he is sort of one of us. Just like it reads. Even as it stands like that, I would of said something similar to Shane...which really wasn't attacking you back. I read it like this. I thought it was more like, we give him crap even though we are out there doing stuff somewhat similar, putting ourselves in danger. I thought you said it like "where do we get off". Again, I see how it was meant now.

Anyway, a belated welcome Fred. There ARE alot of wise asses that come across the wx groups. I'm one of them from time to time. I just fully understand the angle shane took your post from. I likely would of spouted out something similar in reply taking what you wrote the wrong way. Sometimes there are so many attacks, we read everything a bit too negatively, as if they are possibly stabs at us. And judging by the only portion he quoted from you I think that is what happened. That was the only part that stuck out to me.

Niki writes:

Shane is probably just jealous because he isn't a part of the Tornado Attack project.
Most people here welcome new people to the message board and don't argue about stupid things just to be an ass.

Now THAT is funny and to be laughed at.

Welcome to the party Todd!!!
_________________
SA

From.... http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic....der=asc&start=0 (http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2547&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Funny I see Shane welcoming someone and no signs of Niki...... :)

Mike....posting to be an ass in this case......

[Mike Hollingshead]

Sorry if my post was flamish....I was actually typing it when you posted the warning. I was just trying to keep the flames neutral was all.....

Mike

[Jason A.C. Brock]

Plowman. Dont post your opinions on this site. I did so in the past as well and you only get chastized and ridiculed because you might think "outiside" th box.
If you thought your opinions would jsut be opinions and nothing would be siad abbout them or they wouldnt be analyzed with a fine toothed comb then you were wrong. How dare you think you can have an opinion that is anything different from the masters that be. :-)
Im sure there are alot of people out there who think chasing period is stupid and crazy.
My advice to you is that if you havent chased for more than 20 yrs, havent posted 156,395 times in this forum and dont have the same ideas and opinions as 95% of others then dont bother posting at all....BTW I AM KIDDING.....I always gotta put that at the end for possible legal reasons......YA NEVER KNOW!

Welcome to Stormtrack Plowman! Newbies are welcome and there are a few of us that will take up for ya as long as you promise to keep educating yourself and being resposible and safe. In a way I guess ya just got the ST Newbie initiation.......

Happy Chasing

P.S. I am VERY glad Mr Vasquez posted what he did and when he did. I am very impressed and commend his efforts on making this forum fair and balanced and a place were necomers feel welcome and not shunned. Bravo Mr. Vasquez

[mrobinson]

Hell.. David Drummond drove through a tornado and has the video.. Entirely different situation that I am positive had not crossed either of our minds when we left that morning. Tornado Attack goes out and plans to drive into one as their purpose. I won't dispute the rush but while it was happening neither of us were smiling... The shock afterwards was a rush until the big let down of Hallam that shoved down our throat how lucky we were. Pretty sombering actually.

I'm pretty certain David will agree that anyone who intentionally goes out with the agenda to drive through a tornado is a complete and total idiot.

Also for the record we did not drive through a tornado one basically formed right on top of us. BIG DIFFERENCE

[Jason A.C. Brock]

I am sure alot of people called Franklin an idiot with his kite experiment as well. Or did they???? Hmmmmmmm :-p

[David Drummond]

I am sure alot of people called Franklin an idiot with his kite experiment as well. Or did they???? Hmmmmmmm :-p

Ol Ben was an idiot for flying a kite in the lightning. Of course then they didn't know much about it. Thankfully what he learned from being an idiot revolutionized the world.

I hardly think driving into a tornado is going to revolutionize the world.

[Shane Adams]

Shane,

Why are you trying to argue i have only been here a few days and its the second attack while just trying to be part of the conversation...

I'm only arguing the idea....I think intentionally driving into a tornado is stupid. In your original post, you made the comment that "it's funny" how the chase community is chastising this guy.....meanwhile, you're learning. You made it sound as if you couldn't understand why we'd not be "for it." If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize.


who the hell would drive into that? why would you insinuate im stupid? driving a tank would be the safet vehicle i could think of.. It isnt practical and was just said in jest..

I assumed you were serious because of the way I interpreted your original post. And all I was really doing was pointing out that a tank is still a bad idea, not pointing at YOU saying "he's an idiot." The only suggestion I made was that you read up on what violent tornadoes can do, thinking you were serious about the tank. Who knows, maybe I was trying to save your life.

I think Ill just keep my mouth shut from now on as I feel there are people here that know it all and that i cant say **** without a hateful correction... :wink:

If I knew you were joking, I never wouldn't even commented. But as I've stated above, you came across pretty serious to me after your initial post. I suck really bad at reading people in general, I guess I'm even worse online. EAnyway, I wouldn;t let one bad experience out of the box ruin the forums for you.

[Mike Hollingshead]

As for the whole newbie thing. Please don't think the "elders" owe you the world, becuase they don't. Arguments happen regardless of how long one has been chasing. Jason.....did you have any thoughts on the TIV, or was this just yet another chance to get your stabs in at the more longer termed chasers out there? Good grief.

Plowman. Dont post your opinions on this site. I did so in the past as well and you only get chastized and ridiculed because you might think "outiside" th box.

Yes and worst of all someone might just not agree with them, heaven forbid. Everyone loves to act like they are going to die over colorful dissagreements. If the site is so bad Jason just leave. That or one could get over it? Looking at your posts of late it appears to me you aren't getting too ridiculed. Shocking.....I'll have to get right on that. Shane is coming with me. We will start up a clan of unhappy chasers bent on ridiculing every newbie's idea. Even if we do agree we'll change our view just to be able to state something against what they think, achieving ridicule level.

[B Ozanne]

Back to the TIV....where are the pictures?

All I see on the site is some guys in white t-shirts, dark clouds, a pretty sunset, and a few tornado pics.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Back to the TIV....where are the pictures?
All I see on the site is some guys in white t-shirts, dark clouds, a pretty sunset, and a few tornado pics.

Confusing ain't it? That is why I poked fun at it. I felt it was more then justified. That'd be kind of like me posting an account saying I saw this amazing supercell. Then post pictures of a rodeo. Anyway, ya got me where the intercept pics are.

[Mike Peregrine]

The longer you post, the more arguments you get into ... just expect it and move on - not everyone will agree with you all the time. This a no-whining zone.

As for discussion on the TIV - my opinions (take em or leave em) -

*The purpose of this project is not for the advancement of the science ... the notion that sending a car containing a human passenger into a tornado to make scientific strides is laughable and makes for a noble cover story.

*The pictures ... so what ... every chaser I know has better, so far that I've seen.

*The risk - this is a stunt - I don't care when other people risk their lives if they want to - what I do care about is when people do it, then claim to represent storm chasers in some way, play to the media and make me look like an idiot because I do this.

*The reality - this is all about media, airtime and sponsorship - anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken.

This venture can hardly be compared with others, like Tim Samaras' work over the past years. Tim's work involves years of experience, years of effort, a background as a chaser, and honest technical training ... maybe I'm wrong, and they probably know more than I do, but does anyone else think the TIV guys look like little more than:

-a bunch of kids
-chasers who are known to thrive on sensationalism
-a TV 'producer'
-and a racecar driver

Don't look for a call from National Geographic anytime soon -

[fplowman]

I hate the fact that im involved in all the finger pointing..

I thought the same thing Mike.. They dont want to show alot.. they arent trying to impress us I believe.. Theyre trying to impress those who know not about chasing.. It is a marketing ploy.. Plain and simple.. need to build anticipation for those sponsors..

Mike P. have you seen that TIV in Eudora?? That guy lives out there has something similiar to the TIV.. I hear he works at the circle K.. lol

my 2 cents

[Dan Cook]

lol

[Marc Grant]

Something I've never seen brought up on the forum here in regards to what kind of wind it takes to move an object of a certain weight is "surface area". The more surface area exposed to the wind, the more likely even a heavy object will be affected.

The comment about "Oh, and finally - an F4 or greater tornado doesn't care if it's a tank, or a train, or a semi. You really should do some reading....." doesn't take into consideration that a box car and a semi have a huge amount of surface area to catch the wind. We don't see locomotives thrown about from tornados.

The Abrams M1 Tank is 32' long, 12' wide and only 8' high and weighs almost 140,000 pounds. That's a lot of weight for such a low profile so I give the tank a very good chance in an F4 tornado. Just a couple of observations.... :lol:

In regards to the TIV, I got a chance to view it up close one afternoon in Iowa and although it has a lot of 1/4" steel plate on it, the joints and fit of the plate are poorly done leaving lots of ways for the wind to get underneath and rip them from the vehicle.

[Shane Adams]

The comment about "Oh, and finally - an F4 or greater tornado doesn't care if it's a tank, or a train, or a semi. You really should do some reading....." doesn't take into consideration that a box car and a semi have a huge amount of surface area to catch the wind. We don't see locomotives thrown about from tornados.


1931, Minnesota.....Empire Builder. I have to disagree :wink:


The Abrams M1 Tank is 32' long, 12' wide and only 8' high and weighs almost 140,000 pounds. That's a lot of weight for such a low profile so I give the tank a very good chance in an F4 tornado.

But would you be willing to risk your neck on this theory? I understand what you're saying about center of gravity, but with near-ground speed winds approaching 250mph, I think anything not attached to the core of the earth would move. An object doesn't neccesarily have to be airborne in a tornado to be severely damaged.......I'd hate to think what an occupant might look like if one of these tanks ever got to rolling in tornadic winds.

Then again....70 tons is a lot of weight. Problem with this is, the chances we'd ever get this vehicle into position to sample the core of a violent tornado are like a zillion to one.


In regards to the TIV, I got a chance to view it up close one afternoon in Iowa and although it has a lot of 1/4" steel plate on it, the joints and fit of the plate are poorly done leaving lots of ways for the wind to get underneath and rip them from the vehicle.

Not to be rude, but I too have seen this vehicle close up....POS, really.

[Jason A.C. Brock]

If there was any other good chaser sites and forums to go to I think some of us would leave. This forum has gotten alot better since a few new rules have been created. In fact I would go as far as to say this forum is a good one now. It just disturbs me to have these silly misunderstandings in the first place. This is a forum for poeples OPINIONS. If you dont like someones OPINION or disagree then I just feel its alot more effective to not respond to it at all instead of jumping down the persons throat for it or making that person feel uncomfortable or humiliated in front of everyone else. It also saves alot of space in the end.
Of course this is my OPINION and you can take it as just that.
I am not unhappy with the site Mike just some of the comments towards others is all. Of course this all seems to have been a misunderstanding from one person not understandng the other persons meaning or intent. Yet another good reason to hold your tongue before you speak.
I also havent been ridiculed because I havent posted anything except updates for my website because a few months ago I decided to psot nothing but that because when I did post something else (or saw others who dont post that often) someone had to add a little remark here or there that usually was jsut uncalled for. Like your comment you made earlier. Was it needed....no.....of course I can see where my comment may not have been needed about warning plowman not to post because he would be shot down. I was just trying to draw attention to the fact that when the "new guy' makes a post he gets shot down it seems. This to me would make alot of people not want to post. I myself dont post as much as I used to because I dont want to deal with having to defend myself over and over such as now.
I was not trying to get any stabs in at anyone. AGAIN another example of someone taking something the wrong way. If I was taking a stab at anyone it was taking a stab at someone who may have deserved a stab back by taking a poke at someone who didnt take a stab at anyone.
No hard feeling Mike and I actually think you are one of the best photographers I have ever seen in my life.
As for having an opinion about the TIV I think alot of people should be more open minded and think twice before they place their official brand on these guys.
Think about it. Is it worse to know your driving into a tornado or a dangerous area and then do so or to drive into a tornado or a dangerous area and not realize your doing so?
I think both are bonehead moves personally but accidents do happen and sometimes even the great ones make mistakes. It takes mistakes to help one learn afterall. Taking in mind you survive your mistake.
I think this site has greatly improved and am glad to see the pokes and stabs at others brought down to almost zero and the quick action taken against those who do so. However ill do everyone a favor and go back to just checking the target area from now on.
As far as taking pokes at the Vets I personally have no hard feelings toward Vets but if you think there are those who think there is no chastizing of newbies then you are wrong.

The following is from http://www.inchase.org/ this can be added to another thread if anyone feels it needs to be. Ill go back to monitoring the target area myself.

We also believe that veteran chasers tend to err on the side of labeling newcomers Yahoos more frequently than is really necessary. This leads to an un-necessary division in the hobby, and counter productive competition between newbies and vets. It probably even encourages Yahoo-like behavior. By creating a team of individuals of all experience levels, we hope to encourage everyone to be more open to exchange of ideas, techniques, and data that can lead to more success and higher safety for all involved. Learning from a neat idea from a newbie and in turn teaching him to chase responsibly is far better for all than snubbing the newbie fearing he may be a yahoo, then being rear-ended by him as he hydroplanes down the highway!

As far as getting over it I guess I have because there was never really anything to get over lol. I guess it would be easier to get over it instead of voicing my OPINION and actually thinking one might make a difference tho. :lol:

[fplowman]

And I guess my perception was the same as yours Jason.. :wink: I hope all of the Vets here dont see that as wrong.. I dont wish to promote more discontent..

[Shane Adams]

If there was any other good chaser sites and forums to go to I think some of us would leave. It just disturbs me to have these silly misunderstandings in the first place. This is a forum for poeples OPINIONS. If you dont like someones OPINION or disagree then I just feel its alot more effective to not respond to it at all instead of jumping down the persons throat for it or making that person feel uncomfortable or humiliated in front of everyone else.


If what you're looking for is a forum where no one will ever question you, disagree with you, or attempt to learn from/teach you, then yeah......I'd definitely suggest you move on.

What you describe as ridicule, I call debate, disagreement, or alternative viewpoint. To say you'd rather a person not respond at all as opposed o disagreeing with you is close-minded, and completely shuts down the ability to communicate. If everyone always agreed on everything or kept their mouths shut when they didn't, what would be the point of even having a forum? One person could be the appointed "official poster" and they could post once for everyone.....kinda pointless as far as a forum goes.

A careful study of the ST forum archives will show that heated debates aren't indigeonous to new comers. I think the "newbie VS veteran" thing is a little tired.

[Bill Hamilton]

If what you're looking for is a forum where no one will ever question you, disagree with you, or attempt to learn from/teach you, then yeah......I'd definitely suggest you move on.

Shane is correct on this topic. If everyone agrees on the same topics and never questions one another on ideas and viewpoints then we will never learn much and the forum will grow stagnate. Granted, the debates can get a little heated and off the point from time to time but I would rather have it that way than to sit back and accept what someone says is the best way. I enjoy ALL the different viewpoints because it lets me see both sides and I can make a better decision from the information given. One thing I don't agree with is when name calling and slander gets involved. That is never productive and causes more problems (beside not being allowed in this forum).

Wait a minute! I just agreed with Shane, does that mean I need to leave. :D

[Todd Rittinger]

At the risk of further hijacking this thread ;-), I'm aboard with Shane and Bill et al. One of the very kewl things about the Internet is the ability to communicate, express and discuss opinions and ideas. We are all the richer for it. So long as personal attacks, hate, and racism are kept out of it, these discussions, heated or otherwise can be a great way to understand, question, and learn.

my $0.02..

Be well, TR

[fplowman]

Oh come on now.. ok so the new guy is a whiney lil' bitch is where this is going as i read it...

Look.. heres my take.. Dont say nothing to me (or anyone else for that matter) that you wouldnt expect them to thump your head for if you were down the bar having a drink shooting your mouth off...(i like to brawl :D ) If we were face to face and you were being like you were here.. I guess Id be sizing you up.. Use some tact when making a correction and then maybe follow up with your knowledge with some fact. Its just common courtesy and respect no matter who it is.

Ok so someone here likes to cut and paste and **** on and take apart peoples every word interpreting it in a hateful manner suggesting they educate themselves....Without stating any facts or corrections.

So if ya wanna call me names and talk to me like a bitch.. Ill respond in like kind.. Or not at all.. I shouldnt of responded at all.. and im with Jason I see some of you as arrogant lil' eccentric assholes..You can argue it all you want but thats the NEW guys perception.

I didnt want to say that but I have to stand up next to someone who was speaking my mind for me and coming to my defense.. Again someone further chastised and asked him to leave if he didnt like it..

I would appreciate this thread just go away and start over.. im sure i will need information, education or help from some of you someday.. without having to go to war. Im not meaning to be an asshole either.. I am just typing whats going on in my mind.

If ya dont want me to post here.. then thats ok too.. I have never seen such bull**** in my life quit honestly.. (not to be cut and pasted and taken literally* lol) Welcome to Stormtrack..

[Shane Adams]

Oh come on now.. ok so the new guy is a whiney lil' bitch is where this is going as i read it...

What are you talking about? The previous three posts were all commenting on Jason's earlier comments, not yours. Jason's not new to chasing or this forum.

Look.. heres my take.. Dont say nothing to me (or anyone else for that matter) that you wouldnt expect them to thump your head for if you were down the bar having a drink shooting your mouth off...(i like to brawl :D )

Believe me, when it comes to chasing, I call it as I see it. I'd never post anything on here that I wouldn't say to a person's face. And sitting at a bar over some drinks is the best environment I can think of for me and you to get across to each other our differences.....it's called discussion.

As far as brawling, I'm not much for fists, it's a waste of time and doesn't change the very real facts that caused the fight in the first place. You just admitted you LIKE to brawl....perhaps that alone sheds more light on your perspective of this entire thread issue than anything else. If someone wants to clock me because I disagree with them about something, go ahead.....at whatever cost I deem neccesary :wink:


Use some tact when making a correction. Its just common courtesy and respect.

You mean blow smoke? I'm not going to sugar coat anything just because my opinion might not agree with the popular vote. I'd suggest to you like I did Mr. Brock, if you're looking for a forum where disagreement, questioning, and debate aren't welcome or desired.....please move on. You should to log into chat tonight and we'll discuss whatever problem you're having, real-time is much more effective.

Ok so someone here likes to cut and paste and **** on and take apart peoples every word interpreting it in a hateful manner suggesting they educate themselves....Without stating any facts or corrections.

If you take the time to read through this entire thread, you'll see I apologized to you earlier for my mis-interpertation of your original post. I'm not doing it again.

So if ya wanna call me names and talk to me like a bitch.. Ill respond in like kind.. Or not at all.. I shouldnt of responded at all.. and im with Jason I see some of you as arrogant lil' eccentric assholes..You can argue it all you want but thats the NEW guys perception.

Who called you a name? Who treated you like a bitch? Again - if you're talking about the fact that I disagreed with you, said so, then explained WHY, then that's your problem, not mine. If you're unable to take criticism or debate, that's quite a dabilitating disposition...something you should look into.

I didnt want to say that but I want to stand up next to someone who was speaking my mind for me and coming to my defense.. Again you guys chastised and asked him to leave if he didnt like it..

No, that's wrong. Jason said he would leave if there was anyplace else to go......quite the opposite of the accusation you made above.


If ya dont want me to post here.. then thats ok too.. I have never seen such bull**** in my life quit honestly.. Welcome to Stormtrack..

Who has said they don't want you posting here? And where's the bull****? Can you be more specific? All I see is a pair of dudes who can't deal with the fact that other people sometimes disagree with them.

Have you read some of the threads I'VE been involved in? Believe me, my ST forum world hasn't been all rosy and beautiful either. That's why I come here. If we all laid down after someone started a thread and said "yes, we agree" then this wouldn't be the Stormtrack forum at all.

It'd be the Stepford forum.

[JHadorn]

So, back on track, are these Tornado Attack guys the real deal or are they just a load of crap?

[Bill Hamilton]

Oh come on now.. ok so the new guy is a whiney lil' bitch is where this is going as i read it...

No, some "newbies" have excellent input and some have childish remarks. This isn't some teen chat room, we try to be somewhat serious in here. Discussions and viewpoints are always subject to a different point of view. Foul language shouldn't be a part of it though. Just my 2 cents.


They are a LOAD of crap in my opinion.

[fplowman]

Shane.. I just would like to come here and learn without dramatics.. If i recall you did call me an idiot and then someone here was hateful to Jason for coming to my defense.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me. i would rather just be your buddy and move on.. I read Jasons quote and he said exactly what I was thinking.. And i never threatened you.. what i meant was.. if you were to say idiot and laugh at someones idea in their face. It would probably hurt their feellings and possibly would respond differently in arms reach..

Shane if we ever meet dont expect nothing more than a firm handshake. :wink:

NOW LETS MOVE ON PLEASE!!!!
Thanks

[Shane Adams]

So, back on track, are these Tornado Attack guys the real deal or are they just a load of crap?

It's crap, all of it. Mike Peregrine said it best.

You've got some NASCAR guy no one has heard of before, teamed up with a group of chasers who are notorious for sucking up every discernable smidgeon of notoiety available within a satellite's beam/online connection's width.

These guys know the general public and media don't know crap about storms, so their limitations as far as marketing are, well, limitless. It's painfully obvious they're not concerend with actually penetrating a tornado; their website pics from May 12 prove this. You've got text banners flowing rampant stating what a historic event it was, yet ZERO pics of the event itself. And where's the scientific data that we've NEVER had before (after all, these measurements were taken from INSIDE a tornado.....or were they?)

It's the same gimmick we see every year. A few years ago it was the group who said they were gonna broadcast entire chases live through their website....a never-before-done multimedia extravaganza!! And all that produced was a few dozen pictures of benign-looking storm bases.

It's real simple....if these people, any of these people who do the gimmick thing, were truly serious, they'd get legitimate people behind them to at least help them FIND A DECENT STORM. But since their market target is clueless, all they have to do is wow the crowd with months of hype,throw in a few random crap storm shots for build-up.....then they can just make up whatever outcome they want.

It's funny...the media is such a hard industry to get into, but such a simple one to figure out.

[fplowman]

I think they are and theyre not the real deal. I am not sure what they think they will see in the Vortex of the tornado. My imagination says 150 mile an hour + winds and some devastation including possibly their own demise. I think they intend to do so though.

Its Marketing.. which i know quite a bit about.. What they have done though is paint themselves in a corner. Because when and if they drive into this damn thing their project has come to its conclusion.

I went to the site and read and they were saying they spent several 100 thousand dollars on this car.. It seems they do have an investment. If they really intercepted and drove into a tornado outside of Mulvane which is what I read about their project. Then they wouldnt get to play no more.. They would have achieved their goal and the sponsorship etc. Would likely cease.

Basically they are targeting the general public and not scientific research.. That is more than likely their guise for legitimacy of driving into a storm. Which will interest most everyone chasers and non chasers

My documentary im doing now is going to be released in 2007.. Why?? Well anticipation needs to be built.. That is what creates a large viewership, It allows us to get sponsors, that of course takes time.. I am going to probablly film 2 or 3 dozen tornados or storms before I have enough footage to do it right...

And if they are to have a succesful project they need the sponsors .. they need the interest and viewership.

[fplowman]

Hey shane.. Now we agree.. lol :wink:

[Shane Adams]

Shane.. If i recall you did call me an idiot

You're right. I did so because (at that time) I was under the impression that you were actualy SUPPORTING the idea of willingly driving into a tornado.....I figured by calling you out (an idiot) that might get your attention and (perhaps) make you rethink your position (which as it turns out, really wasn't your position).



I dont expect everyone to agree with me. i would rather just be your buddy and move on

I couldn't agree more.

And i never threatened you.. what i meant was.. if you were to say idiot and laugh at someones idea in their face. It would probably hurt their feellings and possibly would respond differently in arms reach..

I never got that impression...I was just repsonding with the same tone I was met with. And as I mentioned before, I'd never say (or do) anything in this forum to a person that I wouldn't do in reality.

Shane if we ever meet dont expect nothing more than a firm handshake. :wink:

Likewise......then maybe a few rounds :wink:

NOW LETS MOVE ON PLEASE!!!!

Absolutely!!!

[fplowman]

Fair enough sir :D

[Todd Rittinger]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?

Be well, TR

[Shane Adams]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?

Be well, TR

Personally, the number one thing I want to know about tornadoes, as far as what's going on inside them, is airflow. VORTEX I believe documented cases where strong tornadoes contained sustained doendrafts of up to 50mph inside their core. To me this is the ultimate goal - finding out what the air on the inside is doing.

We touched on a theory back last year on wx-chase about "shells" of rotation within tornadoes....that is to say, different layers of rotating columns of air, like a "stacked" multi-vortex tornado. One of the theories I came up with was that these shells are a contstant with any tornado, and that multiple vortices occure when that shell breaks down, causing the layers to "un-align" or scatter, adapting a more horizontal center of rotation than vertical, creating the chaotic, multiple vortex structure.

Perhaps these documented downdrafts within sustained tornado funnels sometimes break down, interupted by updraft flow or some localized boundary......this could possibly dictate the form of a tornado .....single vortex/multiple/vortex/in between??????

I dunno, I'm not very smart at this numbers/physics stuff, but despite that.......my mind still tries on its own.

[Jeff Snyder]

Sounds like vortex breakdown...

Several universities / groups / etc have down research and found that there are indeed downdrafts within some vortices. If conditions are right, and if I understand the theory correctly, this decending air can hit the surface and cause the outer rotation to break up into several discrete vortices... This is explained in relatively simple terms on TVC III (I think that's the one) when viewing the semi-famous helicopter video of the tornado-in-the-open near Minneapolis Minnesota years ago.

Hopefully Dan Dawson, whom I think knows quite a bit more about this, can chime in and give us some more specifics...

[Chris Sokol]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?


How about the amount of poop that can fit in a persons pants?

[Bill Hamilton]

So other than the obvious (curiosity and braggin' rights), from a science point of view, what types of things would be measured and accomplished from inside the funnel vs outside?


How about the amount of poop that can fit in a persons pants?

How about the amount of revenue that can be received from sponsors by a publicity stunt with no REAL meaning.

[Todd Rittinger]

Personally, the number one thing I want to know about tornadoes, as far as what's going on inside them, is airflow. VORTEX I believe documented cases where strong tornadoes contained sustained doendrafts of up to 50mph inside their core. To me this is the ultimate goal - finding out what the air on the inside is doing.

We touched on a theory back last year on wx-chase about "shells" of rotation within tornadoes....that is to say, different layers of rotating columns of air, like a "stacked" multi-vortex tornado. One of the theories I came up with was that these shells are a contstant with any tornado, and that multiple vortices occure when that shell breaks down, causing the layers to "un-align" or scatter, adapting a more horizontal center of rotation than vertical, creating the chaotic, multiple vortex structure.

Perhaps these documented downdrafts within sustained tornado funnels sometimes break down, interupted by updraft flow or some localized boundary......this could possibly dictate the form of a tornado .....single vortex/multiple/vortex/in between??????

I dunno, I'm not very smart at this numbers/physics stuff, but despite that.......my mind still tries on its own.

Ok Shane and Jeff, I'm going to take a stab at this. I'm one of those visual/hands on type learners, and that is infinately more difficult since air molecules can't be seen (contents aside). In my former life I was a chef, so please forgive the analogy, but it's what I know :)

Hokee, our vortex is going to be a hollowed out cucumber on it's end. I've also cut it into 1inch or so sections, they are stacked on top of each other, each rotating, and we have air moving downwards thru the cucumber core like blowing in a straw. Am I on track? Then you are saying that this downward air can knock the rotating cucumber rings out of alignment causing them to rotate independently of the group and possibly create vortices of their own? Jeff is also saying that the downward air hitting the earth and spreading out can also knock our cucumber rings out of alignment. Am I close guys, or should I eat the cucumber and try again? :wink:

Chris Sokol - LOL, never considered that. I am sure there is some government agency that could use that data! :idea:

Bill Hamilton - what do you think the ramifications to the sponsor(s) would be if some doufus was killed while trying this in their donated vehicle for example? I think I have a good idea how it would go over here in Canada (tornadoes would be deamed illegal and offending storms would be charged to the full extent of the law :lol: ), but curious about the US.

Thanx for your input guys, and sorry again Niki to be hijacking your thread...

Be well, TR

[Shane Adams]

Hokee, our vortex is going to be a hollowed out cucumber on it's end. I've also cut it into 1inch or so sections, they are stacked on top of each other, each rotating, and we have air moving downwards thru the cucumber core like blowing in a straw. Am I on track? Then you are saying that this downward air can knock the rotating cucumber rings out of alignment causing them to rotate independently of the group and possibly create vortices of their own? Jeff is also saying that the downward air hitting the earth and spreading out can also knock our cucumber rings out of alignment. Am I close guys, or should I eat the cucumber and try again? :wink:




Todd, you've basically got the idea, but instead of our rotations being "shelled" like links in a chain along a constant vortex tube, I was thinking that our different vortex columns were inside of each other; like a bunch of Hokees set inside each other, with the center one being the smallest diameter, then next outside one being a bit llarger, and so on.......to perhaps half a dozen layers of rotation or "shells".

If you've ever seen tornado video where a thin funnel appears inside of a hazy outer rotation or sheath, that's what I'm getting at.

[Todd Rittinger]

Shane, thanx dude! I have the picture in my head now. I was stumbling on the ring "shell" idea, I had them stacked on top of each other instead of inside each other.

Be well, TR

[Jason A.C. Brock]

Calln someone an idiot for having an oposing viewpoint than your own is not communicating. Its being outright rude and disrespectful. At least that is how I was raised. Of course I am understnading some of us werent raised that way or just dont give a damn.

[Bill Hamilton]

Just let it go already!!!! Get over it.

[mrobinson]

This thread is Bi Polar :roll:

FPlowman and Shane did the kiss make up thing so can we just let it go now...K thanks

[Tim Stoecklein]

Once again.....(cue the music) "And these are the days of our lives..." (go to commercial)

:roll:

[David Smith]

Sometimes guys I feel like I am reading a post by someone with multiple personalities. Thank god I am on the other side of the Pacific, it may not affect me over here.

Ok just a quick question does anyone know why there is a downdraft in something created by very strong updrafts? This is the part that confuses me. I understand the basic thermo dynamics of a thunderstorm, however why a downdraft would be trying to push down into the middle of a rapidly rising column of air mystifies me.

[Mike Hollingshead]

Basically if air goes up it's coming down somewhere at the same time. Often there is shear carrying the precip away from the updraft. It's evidently not rising rapidly anymore if there is a down draft in it. If there is no wind shear carying the cooler air and preicp away from the udraft region then the storm rains on itself. Or it's a shortlived updraft. Cold air goes back down creates it's own boundary at the sfc acting like a scoop to lift the warm air once again. Sometimes it's best to think of a storm forming itself this or that direction instead of it moving here or there. Someone else can likely add better thought then this though.....

Mike

To add.... with supercells you basically have one updraft and two down draft regions. Forward flank precip would be one downdraft, and air sinking behind(upstream) the updraft(RFD) would be the second. Both act like funneling mechanisms for your updraft region. Once you have sinking air where your updraft was, that is now a downdraft. So that should be perplexing.

[David Sallee]

Ok, I'm going to take a stab at this.... please note, in no way or form would I go into a tornado... with that being said here is a better design for a vehicle to go into a tornado...

The one they have designed is more like a race car that I see every Sat night at the local dirt track.... as some one posted, there is alot of places for air "wind" to get under it and throw it about like a rag doll... soooo

Here is my design idea...

1. VERY Aerodynamic
2. Low Profile
3. can make as heavey as a car for weight purposes
4. UNMANED - remote control
5. Runs on electric
6. Frame constructed of steel
7. shell made out of Lexan or bullet proof glass

The frame would have wheels like a car (smaller though) that would be hydrolic... I'll explain later.... All of the computer and data components would be housed in a "black box" like container inside the shell...

How this whould work....

By remote control, guide the unit in the tornado path.... (remamber the hydrolic wheels)... once the vehicle is in place, the hydrolic wheel would then retract into the shell which would put the vehicle flat on the ground which should keep any wind from getting under it... if ya wanted to get fancy, you could have a couple large drill bits (like you use to drill post holes with) drill into the ground as the wheels are being raised which might help it be anchored better.... with the shell design, there shouldn't be very much if any wind resistance....

Here is a very rough shell design to show what I mean..
http://www.viperschase.com/images/thought.jpg

Ok all, what do ya think? pick it apart, make it better, whatever... Do you think this would be a better design than their current one??

[Steve Udick]

problem with that design is Bernoulli. As a strong draft passes over top of that design, airflow will speed up to make up for the added distance the parcels of air have to travel, and as that speed increases, it will create a pressure low. If the wind speeds got great enough it could pull it off the ground. maybe some spoiler would be added to the top of it to brea up the boundry layer, but that still may not work with winds around F3 or higher....

[Shane Adams]

If Tim Samaris' turtles can do it, I don't see why this thing couldn't. Tim's turtle probes are light enough for a person to carry alone, and they've made it through some pretty intens tornadoes. I don't think this car thingy would do any worse.

The only problem I see isn't with the design so much as it is the basic size/weight of the remote probe; if it were to become airborne, that's a pretty lethal missle to by flying around.

[Marc Grant]

If Tim Samaris' turtles can do it, I don't see why this thing couldn't. Tim's turtle probes are light enough for a person to carry alone, and they've made it through some pretty intens tornadoes. I don't think this car thingy would do any worse.

The only problem I see isn't with the design so much as it is the basic size/weight of the remote probe; if it were to become airborne, that's a pretty lethal missle to by flying around.

I remember one or more of the turtles being lifted and blown away from where they were laid down and landed with enough force to cut a gouge in a gravel road. Does anyone else remember this?

[Tim Samaras]

Marc:

The probe that got "blown away" was the media probe that belong to National Geographic on June 24, 2003. It was a triangle thing with flat sides..and the wind sucked it up like a kid slurping soup from a bowl! None my probes have been lost.....yet!

Tim Samaras

[Dan Robinson]

I remember from Tim's presentation in Denver the impressive pictures of the road where one of the probes had been set down. All of the gravel on the road had been scoured away except for a perfect circle where the probe rested.

[Glen Romine]

Marc:

The probe that got "blown away" was the media probe that belong to National Geographic on June 24, 2003. It was a triangle thing with flat sides..and the wind sucked it up like a kid slurping soup from a bowl! None my probes have been lost.....yet!

Tim Samaras

Tim,

I was wondering if you ever tested the idea of dimpling the top of the probe to reduce air resistance (like as is done for golf balls to increase flight). Maybe it could help, or not. Guess your design hasn't met it's match yet - best of luck!

Glen

[Shane Adams]

Sorry I mispelled your name there Tim :oops:

[Kyle Masters]

These guys know the general public and media don't know crap about storms, so their limitations as far as marketing are, well, limitless.

I wouldn't see a problem with at least SOME type of public campaign (tv, radio, what have you) about what we do, why we do it, and what "real" storm chasers look for. The scientific research of tornados/thunderstorms and the general wellbeing of the public.

[Tim Samaras]

Glen:

It seems the current design seems the best. We have thought about "roughing up" the surface, but we were very limited to only two test models due to the cost of the wind tunnel time. Great idea..someday we'll give it a try!

Dan:

Yep, you are correct. After tornado passage, the gravel was all scoured out leaving the probe/gravel under in tact. Actually, the wind "pushes" the probe into the soil. Key to success is the edge of the probe sort of "digging" into the soil when deployed. Otherwise, it will flip like a hubcap!

Shane:

No problem! Glad to hear you had a great season!

Tim Samaras

[Marc Grant]

Originally posted by Tim Samaras
Marc:

The probe that got \"blown away\" was the media probe that belong to National Geographic on June 24, 2003. It was a triangle thing with flat sides..and the wind sucked it up like a kid slurping soup from a bowl! None my probes have been lost.....yet!

Tim Samaras

Hey Tim...... thanks for the clarification.

[Bill Tabor]

The comment about "Oh, and finally - an F4 or greater tornado doesn't care if it's a tank, or a train, or a semi. You really should do some reading....." doesn't take into consideration that a box car and a semi have a huge amount of surface area to catch the wind. We don't see locomotives thrown about from tornados.

Here's an F3 tornado / train incident that occurred back in May '97 (Jarrell day) down the street from me in Cedar Park, Tx.

"A historic train located on the north side of CR 180 just to the east of US 183 was in the direct path of the tornado. While the engine remained on the track, a coal tender converted to hold diesel fuel and weighing approximately 65,000 pounds including the 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel was flipped over and thrown a short distance."

http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/cgi-win/wwcgi.dl...howEvent~311089 (http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/cgi-win/wwcgi.dll?wwevent~ShowEvent~311089)

[Bill Tabor]

Ok all, what do ya think? pick it apart, make it better, whatever... Do you think this would be a better design than their current one??

I think the airflow design is mostly appropriate although a circle might be better than ellipse so. I believe as long as this is flat against the ground then air should travel across it and keep it forced down. However by the Bernoulli effect if air ever gets under it then it becomes a flying wing because of the curvature of the upper surface. I'm kicking around the idea of having 'overpressure' emanating from the bottom of the vehicle which would prevent air from getting under.

Just a thought.

[Bill Tabor]

I'm kicking around the idea of having 'overpressure' emanating from the bottom of the vehicle which would prevent air from getting under.

I just realized this would make it a hovercraft. Perhaps a hovercraft shaped similarly to your design, or Tim's turtles would be effective. Not sure how you would propel it though. It would have to have enough resistance to travel to not be blown away (horizontally) from the high winds it was in.