Skywarn Class Off Limit to Public

[Joey Ketcham]

So I just got word that the Skywarn spotter class for my county is off limits to the public. What this means is that unless you're affiliated with an emergency service (fire, ems, police) then you cannot attend. I just heard of this, the spotter class is held this week. This will be the first time in years that I haven't attended a skywarn class in my county.

I'm not sure if SGF wanted it this way or what, but I think it's BS. I'm sorry, but some of the worst and most inaccurate reports I've heard were from law enforcement and ems. Almost like saying that you're not good enough to be a spotter unless you're affiliated with an emergency service.

Is it like this elsewhere besides here? I sent the WCM an email asking if this was a permanant thing or what.

[Mike Peregrine]

Good call e-mailing the WCM ... he/she should be able to give you an explanation at least.

Sounds like an effort either to contain the crowds and growing interest in weather (I tried to get into one class last year that was so full they turned me away at the door, mainly because the fire dept. chief was there and knew the facility was beyond capacity) ... or possibly an effort by local spotters who are growing more hostile to growing numbers of chasers and other enthusiasts. I'm hearing more snide comments these days by disgruntled HAM spotters who want to put an end to what they see as the 'chaser problem' in their communities.

Personally, I feel like the more people attending, the BETTER. If it helps Joe Local distinguish a wall cloud from a roll cloud, then I'm all for it. Get a bigger venue.

[Joey Ketcham]

Yeah I just think this was a bad move. Hope to hear from the WCM soon in regards to why this was done. We don't have problems with storm chasers or spotters in the county, generally saw maybe 20-30 people there so don't think it was a problem with it being overcrowded.

Not sure, have to wait and see.

[Tony Laubach]

Maybe they're doing this to give these guys some REAL training since the public sometimes does better! :lol:

[rdale]

Are you sure that's the only class in your county? I know some offices do a public one and if the interest is there they come back and do one for public safety only...

As a matter of fact, the listing shows they have a 1pm and 6pm class for your county that day. But you're saying both are off limits?

[Joey Ketcham]

I found this article on the newspapers website which does indicate that there will be no public training this year, so I'm assuming this also includes the 1 PM class.

I also read that this decision was made by the NWS, I think that was a poor decision. That's a crappy deal. After the photographs, videos and reports I submit to SGF they come and say I can't attend the training class. :blink:

Weather spotter training slated for March 29
By The Morning Sun

Crawford County emergency services and law enforcement agencies will have weather spotter training on March 29, Eldon Bedene reported at the Disaster Management Committee meeting Thursday morning.

There will be no public training this year, said Bedene, county civil defense director, because the classes are set up by the National Weather Service, which chose not to do public training this year.

Bedene also reported that Homeland Security funding has gone regional, with half of the money being distributed through a committee. Bedene read the list of committee members, including Crawford County Sheriff Sandy Horton, Pittsburg Police Chief Mendy Hulvey and County EMS Director Joey Adams.

The county received a "COW" last week, or a communications [system] on wheels, Bedene said. The system should be up and running by April and will provide the county with radio backup power.

* The committee stressed that the burn ban is still on for the county and Arma, Pittsburg, Frontenac and other cities.

* Janis Goedeke, with the Crawford County Health Department, said Vincent T. Covello, founder and director of the Center for Risk Communication, will speak on April 19 at Pittsburg Memorial Auditorium. Covello will speak on how emergency services should handle the media.

* Pittsburg Fire Chief Don Elmer said the department's new rescue truck would be in by the end of March.

* Severe Weather Awareness Week is set March 13-17.

[Jayson Prentice]

I would think that they would at least allow their previous years spotters and ham radio operators, etc into the class. I don't understand having only the EM, Fire and the etc. in there when I'm sure they could really use other help than just those guys. This is the first I've heard of the NWS not having any public class for the area. Like somebody said above I've heard of them having seperate ones, but not something like this.

[Joey Ketcham]

Yeah for as long as I've been attending them, and it's been many many years since I first started going, they always had one at 1 PM which was for the emergency groups and then they had their 6:30/7ish one for the public.

[Mike Gauldin]

I can't see why the NWS wouldn't allow the public in. You think if a tornado hits that the Fire Dept, EMS, and Police are going to be able to pay full attention to the current/oncoming weather when there's a disaster? Heck, I work for an EMS service and if we get a tornado approaching, they'll send all of the trucks to fire stations (as we don't have "stations", we post around town at strategic locations and we're constantly being moved. But you don't have time for a station when you run 10 calls in a 12-hour shift). If anything, I would think they would want more people to know how to recognize severe weather. I could understand if it was a private class by someone other than the NWS, or a class specifically for emergency agencies, but not all classes in that county.

[Joey Ketcham]

I am also sending an email to the Meteorologist In Charge. It irks me that they are basically saying that I, along with other non-emergency affiliated spotters, aren't good enough to attend the training class. I still call it BS.

[Jeff Snyder]

I don't know anything behind the reason to make the classes closed to the public, but in all reality, is it really THAT big of a deal? I mean, how many Skywarn classes can you go to in surrounding areas? Sure, you may need to drive to the next county, but I'd think that most folks interested in working with Skywarn wouldn't find this to be a major deal. If SGF made all their Skywarn sessions private, then I'd be more surprised. But, as I understand it, we're only talking about a couple of classes out of a more than a couple dozen that SGF does, or a couple private classes out of a half dozen that would probably be within a 45 minute drive. I assume that the folks at SGF aren't crazy, so I assume there's a valid reason behind making these couple of classes private.

[Joey Ketcham]

Is it that big of a deal? No, it's not. Not enough to make a federal case out of it, but that doesn't mean I can't call it BS. To me it was about networking with other spotters within the county and NWS staff.

I am just interested in knowing why this was decided. There are many spotters, and damn good ones, within this county who - like me - goes to the class every year and not affiliated with EMS, fire, and police but now can't.

[Jeff Snyder]

Yeah, I do think it'll be interesting to see why they closed off both Crawford county classes. On the other hand, y'all could just caravan the 25 miles to Lamar / Barton Co. MO for the meeting tomorrow.

[David Drummond]

In our area, most all of the smaller town classes are closed to either LEO or FD officials, but there are a few that are open, and there are usually some open sessions in the bigger cities. I know one of the reasons they do it is because of the location they have them, often in the private meeting rooms of the PD or FD training or something like that, where the general public has no business being anyway.

As I understand it, most NWSFOs will put on a class for anyone that asks as long as you have a sufficiently sized group of people interested in attending, although it may need to be scheduled earlier in the year.

[Dan Robinson]

I seem to be one of the few chasers who 1.) isn't a HAM and 2.) never went to a Skywarn class.

So, my question is, what is in a Skywarn class that you wouldn't already know as someone who has 1.) chased more than one or two years and personally witnessed supercells and structure, and/or 2.) someone who has immersed themselves in the science/hobby (IE study of books, web sites, videos, etc.) and 3.) been involved in the 'chase community' long enough to hear the major issues/dangers/techniques discussed time and time again.

For someone starting out, I could see the need, but I guess I'm wondering if it is really necessary for a chaser with any competent practical experience to get Skywarn training. Or if Skywarn training is the only 'legit' way to learn about supercells/weather hazards and be competent in the field.

[Tony Lyza]

You would think that a county that just had an extremely powerful F4 plow through two years ago would want as many trained spotters as possible. That isn't right.

Then again, though we have public training in our county, our county (~480,000 people) only has one class on 4/19, and at first release, we didn't even have a class on our schedule.

[Joey Ketcham]

Like I said though, Dan, it's not that I'm going to learn anything new. You're right, I already know what they teach but I mainly went because I felt it was a good time to network with other storm spotters as well as NWS staff. The same question could be asked to people who attends the Chaser Convention. I don't feel a need to go, but people do so they can network with other chasers, swap stories and mingle.

[Bobby Eddins]

Personally this was the first year since I was very young that I havn't attended a Skywarn School due to my work schedule. Though I could probably teach much of the course I always like to see how the presentation has evolved and often learn just a bit more, especially in the advanced course.

Of course the DFW Skywarn Classes are always put on by Gary Woodall (Basic) and Al Moller (Advanced) so I'd put them up against any done nation-wide. Of course the public is welcome as well as EMS, PD, FD, etc.

It's all about having educated eye's giving accurate reports. We've got a long way to go before that's achieved.

[Joey Ketcham]

The meteorologist in charge replied back to me, he's gonna get with the WCM and find out why they're closing this off to the public and that either him or the WCM will get back in touch with me to let me know.

[Shane Adams]

It's probably to keep chasers out so they can't defend themselves when the NWS rips them in front of all those spotters. I think it's wonderful how the NWS always asks for our reports then runs us down at SKYWARN meetings.

[Bobby Eddins]

It's probably to keep chasers out so they can't defend themselves when the NWS rips them in front of all those spotters. I think it's wonderful how the NWS always asks for our reports then runs us down at SKYWARN meetings.
[/b]


Down here we always get credit, usually both when the video is showing and at the end. Of course both Gary and Al are chasers. They often ask our opinion on a storm if we were on it.

[Jason Boggs]

Here is the spotter training schedule from the Amarillo NWS. Some of the meeting are private and some are public.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ama/spotter_traini...hed/sptrain.htm (http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ama/spotter_training_sched/sptrain.htm)

[Paul Austin]

but I guess I'm wondering if it is really necessary for a chaser with any competent practical experience to get Skywarn training. Or if Skywarn training is the only 'legit' way to learn about supercells/weather hazards and be competent in the field.[/b]

You are probably right about the training, but when attending, you have the opportunity to network with other spotters, EMS, NWS staff, other chasers, civil authorities, etc. It also gives you an opportunity to participate in the training, offering your own expertise and experiences from the field in open discussion. Sometimes you can actually help answer a trainee's questions. It's just another way to contribute to the wx community.

Hopefully this is an isolated case.

[rdale]

It's probably to keep chasers out so they can't defend themselves when the NWS rips them in front of all those spotters.[/b]

I think any chasers that put themselves and others in danger by standing in roadways / excessive speeding / etc. NEED to be ripped by the NWS at spotter meetings.

But to say that's why they closed this training session is downright stupid. That would not be anywhere near the reason.

[Joey Ketcham]

And plus there are spotters that always needs that training that will now not recieve that training and perhaps lead to mishaps in the field this year; such as inaccurate report, calling a feature by the wrong name.

[Jay McCoy]

Maybe they just didnt want the spotters to feel less knowledgable than the chasers that would attend. :P

I have been chasing for a very long time and am a certified spotter. With my AES role I am required to take spotter training every year and I can tell you in the majority of cases a chaser will know more about a storm, its structure, and what he is seeing than a spotter and will be more apt to report correctly what is happening. I have seen spotters at these classes that couldnt tell a shelf cloud from a wall cloud even after the session. 2 hrs is not enough for somebody to be proficient enough to be that reliable. That takes field experience.

Now before a flame war starts I will explain. Most spotters only go out a few times a year and actually see a severe storm let alone a tornadic one after a 2 hr training class. A chaser on the other hand knows the atmospheric conditions. he has made his own forecast. he knows what can be expected that day and spends days chasing and spotting dozens of storms. Since he sees more storms and understands the dynamics involved he naturally will know more and be more accurate in his reports than a spotter who has seen maybe 2 or 3 severe storms all year.

At my class the WCM that gives it knows me well so he doesnt even let me answer anything so others have to.

[rdale]

Has the NWS actually confirmed anything yet? I've yet to see a response of any kind from them...

[Joey Ketcham]

They have not confirmed anything as of yet. The meteorologist in charge said he would get with the WCM to find out about this and would get back to me, so I'll probably know something pretty quick.

[Joey Ketcham]

Finally got things cleared up. I knew that didn't sound right.

The WCM got back with me.... the local newspaper stated in their article that the NWS in SGF was the one who decided to not make this a public class this year. That's not the case. The MIC or WCM knew nothing of this so obviously they did not decide anything of this nature. Not sure who the local paper was quoting on that.

So I contacted the EM and was advised that spotters can attend who are not associated with fire, police, or ems. So who knows where this came from.

[Jon Holder]

2 words: Damage Control!

Up here in NWS TOP territory they've never closed classes to the public, although they do have advanced spotter classes for ARES, Entire PD and/or Fire depts. etc.

We do have a new Warning Coordinator: Jennifer Starks from the Cheyenne, Wy office took over Mike Akulow's job after he retired in October 05. We've already shown her tornado out breaks on Thanksgiving Day weekend so we're trying to break her in :D


Jon Holder

[Tim Stoecklein]

On the contrary here in NE KS, the NWS folks really praised the chasers in their presentation in our county. Most of the pictures used in the presentation came from our local chaser crowd like Darin, Dick, Mike P, and others...........It's all wide open to the public, the more the better.

[Joe Nield]

It's probably to keep chasers out so they can't defend themselves when the NWS rips them in front of all those spotters. I think it's wonderful how the NWS always asks for our reports then runs us down at SKYWARN meetings.
[/b]

As an NWS met who has taught about 10 spotter classes, I find this extremely perplexing. Granted, I can't speak for my brethren out west, but neither I nor anyone else at Indianapolis disparage chasers in any way. Where did this come from?

Note to mods: I just realized what forum this is in. The topic threw me, and I thought I was still in W&C. In any case, as one of the B&G scarlet letter folks from the X2 upgrade, my apologies, and go ahead and delete if you feel necessary.

[rdale]

"Where did this come from?"

I think the fact that we know who posted it without having to look at the author line means something...

[John MacKay]

Yeah, Tim, that was something that I noticed was the people that I knew from this board with video and/or pictures at the presentation. I just happened to look at Scott Currens' website about a day or two before the meeting and saw the same video on his website at the meeting (and Jennifer Starks mentioned the tornadoes he saw in January). It was a very good presentation with some of our finest providing some of the tutorial.

[Tim Vasquez]

This topic belongs on Weather & Chasing... I'm moving it out there.

[Damon Poole]

I've been certified in storm spotting since 1988, that's 18 years, and I'm always still learning something. I've also seen plenty without going across the country to do so. Many spotters like me, also have other advanced training and field experience, and many like me, also make our own analyses and forecasts. I have a minor in Physical Geography as well as a TV weather internship under my belt.

I'm not here to flame anybody either, but while there are spotters who may see only 2 or 3 storms a year, I personally don't see where that makes them inferior to a chaser. The fact that chasers are more mobile and chase more storms doesn't mean that they are necessarily any more or less knowledgable or experienced than other trained spotters. There are also a few chasers who have very little if any training in meteorology or spotting, and they also make mistakes. A few have even lost their lives. My point is that there are extremes in both groups, but all of us can and do make valuable contributions.

Damon Poole,
Certified SKYWARN Spotter,
Guy, Arkansas

[David Drummond]

While there are spotters who may see only 2 or 3 storms a year, I personally don't see where being a trained and certified spotter makes anyone inferior to a chaser. The fact that chasers are more mobile and chase more storms doesn't mean that they are necessarily any more or less accurate than spotters. There are also a few chasers who have very little if any training in meteorology or spotting, and they also make mistakes. A few have even lost their lives. My point is that there are extremes in both groups, but all of us can and do make valuable contributions.

Damon Poole,
Certified SKYWARN Spotter,
Guy, Arkansas
[/b]

Damon, you have to realize that spotters like yourself, that DO take a deeper interest in the workings of the atmosphere, that DO take a shot at their own forecasts, etc etc are rather rare. In my experiences, there aren't MANY that do that, but maybe one or two in each area. The rest of the folks that will jump in and participate in the nets most of the time aren't even aware that severe weather is looming until they hear the net come up or the NOAA tones go off or they hear thunder. The awareness factor varies by area of course, with Oklahoma probably having the highest from what I can tell listening to various nets across the plains. This can easily be evidenced by the stations that key up and have to ASK net control if there is any threatening weather in their area, even though the net has been up for an hour.

Seems most of the time those few that do have the deeper interest often find they aren't satisfied with whatever comes roaming around their home territory and cross over to the CHASER side to go to the storms instead of waiting for them to come to them.

As for experience, in any activity, a person that does that activity MORE and thus has more experience at it will naturally refine their skills and be better at it than a person that only occassionally gets to participate in it. The old saying, practice makes perfect. Obviously anything is far from perfect in weather, but a person that is observing 100 storms per year is naturally going to hone their skills and be better at it than a person who only sees 2 or 3 storms per year, chaser or spotter tags aside.

As for chasers that have made mistakes and lost their lives chasing.....that's news to me??? I know of two "chaser" deaths due to hydroplanning, neither of which were on an active chase, but on their way home.

[Joey Ketcham]

A few have even lost their lives. My point is that there are extremes in both groups, but all of us can and do make valuable contributions.
[/b]

Please elaborate. There has only been two deaths as a result of hydroplanning, not due to lack of experience and knowledge. I do not know of any other storm spotters or storm chasers that have died or been injured during an active chase.

[Damon Poole]

David and J.

First, you both are correct, those chaser deaths were due to hydroplaneing. I wasn't trying to link the deaths to storm chasing. The sentence about the chaser deaths was a separate thought. If I implied otherwise, it was simply my written error, and for that, I stand corrected. The point I was trying to make is that we all make mistakes, regardless of experience, training, or labels.

Second, I wholeheartedly agree with you on most of your points. Experience does come with practice. I am not knocking anybody who chases and spends the hundreds of hours and dollars to chase storms across state lines. More power to everyone who regularly does so, whether for education, research, business, or hobby. However, I stand by my point that education is still education, and, experience is still experience, regardless of whether one sees only 2 or 3 storms, or over 100 per year. This also is true whether it is gained in the plains, or in one's own neighborhood. Again, as I said in my original post, there are extremes in both spotters and chasers, good and bad, and both groups make valuable contributions.

Respectfully,

Damon Poole